Mbayless and Crocdoc

kap10cavy · 12-01-04, 10:35 PM

I hate to see you all leaving the "other" forum and hope you both stick around here so I can pick your brains and get you to post pics. How are the lacie eggs coming?
Just think about this. If you leave, you let the other people win.
As for Sam, maybe ya'll can get him to come here so I can make stupid comments and get him to post long replies. Hahaha
It's amazing how I can push his buttons without name calling from either of us.

Scott

mbayless · 12-01-04, 11:37 PM

Hi Scott,

I am tired of the BS on KS, and its as simple as that...I am tired of the Orwellian semantics and dogma a few perpetrate on all and offer little 'real' new information to it except they saw it happen; when it is contended, those posts are deleted, not once, twice, thrice but countless of times - we see it everyday here in USA now, and with this sick dogma in the white-house, it will not stop for years to come...I want no part of it - there is no point in it -

If you feel compelled to fight the fight, by all means Please do so, but I will not partake in it anymore....that is the second time I have said that on KS, and as the saying goes: "First time shame on him; second time shame on me!" So I am bowing out of KS sh$t.... I always enjoyed this forum, cybersalvator and of course Varanus.nl where I requent regularly. Yeah, FaRt and axis powers may have spies or lurk there if he wishes, but (hopefully) he will keep his 'dogma' to KS and his own Bushit[e] forums. It is not about who is right or wrong, it is about the ability to have equal say in what one feels on a certain topic, and on KS that is not possible nor has it been for quite some time, but lately the 'moderators' have been busy deleting anti-FaRt posts/threads, so to 'Hella' with them all I say. I personally have no malice again the others, just the way in which it is handled one-sided...and as I said before, I am very tired of that crap.

I cannot speak for DK, but I visit this forum once a-day...and will continue to do so....and may be more inclined to post and reply more often than I have recently....

cheers Scott,
markb

crocdoc · 12-01-04, 11:38 PM

Hey Scott,

I'll still be posting here, on cybersalvator.com and varanus.nl. Sam doesn't usually post here, but he's on the other two.

As far as the other forum goes, it's not a win/lose thing, but they should really label it a soapbox rather than a forum, as it leans heavily towards one point of view and has done since I first started posting there almost four years ago. In the end I don't care what everyone there thinks monitors do in the wild, most of them will go to their graves without ever visiting Australia, anyway. The science bashing gets a bit old, though.

The recent clutch of eggs was still looking good last time I looked, but that was before I moved the incubator into a cooler area in anticipation of some hot days this week (40C). Now that it is no longer in my loungeroom I check up on the eggs less frequently. If they last the first two weeks (which comes up this coming Monday), they'll probably go the distance. I certainly will not be checking up on them daily as I did with last season's clutches, for some of them went to 265 days: that's a lot of wear and tear on that poor incubator door, LOL!

HeatherRose · 12-01-04, 11:48 PM

Hey guys,

I'm gonna have to ask you to keep the bashing and the language down to a dull roar...feel free to take anything you want into PM's though...

That way this thread won't have to be moved.

Thanks

mbayless · 12-01-04, 11:50 PM

Sorry Rose/Moderator - I'll keep it to a low humm....

Thanx,
markb

kap10cavy · 12-02-04, 12:55 AM

I am glad you guys are still where I can find you. As far as KS goes, I will still go. It does bother me that all sides can't be heard whether we agree with them or not. That's what a discussion is supposed to be. My views, your views, their veiws and the right views. Hahaha
Someone drag Sam in here so maybe we can have some more discussions.
Oh Mark, leave the politics out please. My lizards can't vote and might feel bad.

Later

Matt_K · 12-02-04, 12:59 AM

hey kap10cavy, instead of being a smartas$, how about you read the site's TOS??? Maybe one of your lizards can read it to you??

The rules of this site are very straight forward, we don't ask for much from you guys, so really, there's no need to be rude about it when a moderator asks that you comply with these rules..

-Matt

mbayless · 12-02-04, 01:35 AM

So now for an interesting topic: It is established in wild populations of V. griseus that male and female breeding, nest and go their merry way until the next breeding season whereby they find one another again, with the same two animals, greet one another and do the procreate dance again....now V. griseus is typically a agnostic species ready to bite the hand that feed them or anything else... so this two animals bond for breeding, but otherwise are extreme solitares in the deserts from Morroco to Syria and Lebanon and farther east into Iran, Iraq, where they are replaced by V.g.k. species. These studies were done principally by Alexey Tsellarius, an extremely gracious and kind fellow, and a damn good biologist. He identified his animals by tagging them with markers of paint on their dorsums and sometimes legs. I have numerous photos of this and all of his academic articles and letters as well to back up the afore-mentioned. He wanted to write this all up as a book in english but needs $2500 to do it published privately...anyone interested? Otherwise such fascinating information might be lost to 'science' and all interested parties.

Any comments? Is this pair bonding? Breeding behavior? Example of social bonding? All of the above? None of the above?

Cheers,
markb

kap10cavy · 12-02-04, 07:37 AM

Now that is interesting. It's discussions like this that make me think.
Now for some questions. Are they reported to meet at the same area around the same time? Do they find each other from scent marking? I wonder what happens if a different but healthy male shows up when and where the bonded male is supposed to be?
Or what happens when one or the other is lost to predators, weather or health?

Scott

mbayless · 12-02-04, 01:07 PM

Hi Scott,
Here is what I know about Alexey Tsellarius' field studies that can help answer your questions:

Now for some questions. Are they reported to meet at the same area around the same time? Do they find each other from scent marking?

They do meet in the same nesting sights, via scent/pheromones as chemical cues.

I wonder what happens if a different but healthy male shows up when and where the bonded male is supposed to be? Or what happens when one or the other is lost to predators, weather or health?

If two males approach a female that has bonded with said male, ritualized combat occurs, which is a five-phased step process of determining which males/females are stronger = fit = better genes etc ....same applies to females. Apparently they burrow in the same nest sights from the previous season. If the male and/or female dies before this "love story" resumes, the V. griseus finds a new mate. Cool huh.

mbayless

crocdoc · 12-02-04, 04:14 PM

I don't doubt that males will mate with the same females each year in most varanid species, since there's only so far they are going to go to find a mate and they'll likely try the females whose home range overlaps theirs, first. Did the study on V griseus also include information on population density to determine whether these pairs were shunning all others or there simply weren't that many around? That would be an interesting parameter to investigate.

I also notice there is no mention of them spending the year together, so do they just meet during the breeding season?

mbayless · 12-02-04, 04:20 PM

Hi DK,
they appear to only meet duringthe breeding season, and are solitary otherwise...where they go after mating/nesting is not known. Alexey has sadly had to go to other studies via funding in Russia, and will not be working with V. griseus in future he tells me. The population during mating season was higherthan normal as good breeding/nesting sites are rare. Of course all of this is based on how well they feed during the (brief) summer months principally on jerboa, which constitute a majority of their diet....there are so many other fascinating things about V. griseus that make one raise an eye-brow when compared to other Varanus species....

Why we did not make our decisions before this last weeks afore-mentioned dogma to leave KS behind is a mystery to me...but a good decision you think?
Cheers DK,
markb

crocdoc · 12-02-04, 04:36 PM

Haha, so true, Mark.

The V griseus information is very interesting, but also fits in with what one would expect - given that there is a shortage of good nesting areas etc.

mbayless · 12-02-04, 10:46 PM

yeah, and this may be a key to why some people think they are social, which if it is done only during breeding makes it insoluable idea. Heini Heidger was 'the' master of captive zoo ethology, and his outstanding books discuss such things as this written back in 1940's - 1970's.... and can be applied to varanids as easily as any other vertebrates...

If nesting sites is shortage, then population densities in these areas, as seen from Dinosauria to present day has not changed. Good thing hominids do not need nesting sites and can fornicate anywhere, from roof of office bkdg to city park, which I saw last week with amuzement and disgust.

Cheers DK,
markb

kap10cavy · 12-02-04, 11:06 PM

From what I have read on V griseus , they seem like a good and fun monitor to study considering their wide range. The buggers seem to be everywhere. If I am not mistaken Mertens did some chasing too.
Now about social. What about the larger species that have a limited range like the komodo? From what I have seen and read, they are often found in groups. I do realize there is a pecking order (biggest is in charge).

Scott