Rattle Snake

[~Suntiger~]

"Millions of live reptiles are sold each year for the pet trade. In 2001 alone, the United States imported just under 2 million live reptiles. Of these, over 500,000 were green iguanas (Iguana iguana) from Central and South America. Other species commonly found in the pet trade include the boa constrictor (Boa constrictor), ball python (Python regius), panther chameleon (Chameleo pardalis), and red-footed tortoises (Geochelone carbonaria). The United States annually exports more than 8 million red-eared slider turtles (Trachemys scripta elegans), the world's most commonly traded live reptile.

What is the United States' role in world reptile trade?
The United States is a major participant in world reptile trade, and imports an average of 2 million live reptiles and 6 million reptile products each year. Most live reptiles imported into the United States are imported for the pet trade."

http://www.worldwildlife.org/trade/faqs_reptile.cfm

[M_surinamensis]

And this latest one barely mentions collection as being a threat (calling collection for multiple reasons a cummulative threat in a single sentance which encompasses folk medicine and agricultural collection with the pet trade) and doesn't give any specific numbers about wild populations or the effect this collection supposedly has.

(Pssssst, here's a hint, rather than checking links from animal rights sites, which are all political propaganda and LIES, why not check the CITES page? It's accurate information from a reliable source... or how about contacting the fish and wildlife authorities in your area and actually asking?)

[mudflats]

PETA, HSUS, or any other type of group like this has absolutley no informatonal vlaue what so ever. As stated they are liers, and would love to have the world in a plastic celery eating bubble. Aswell as PETA being considered a terrorist group to some extents.

[Mustangrde1]

If you are looking for good groups to cite try C.I.T.E.S or USF&W Groups that actually have more Biologist then Lawyers and Political lobbiest.

[Mustangrde1]

This poorly regulated trade harms wild populations and their habitats. Poor capture techniques, compounded by poor shipping methods or inadequate care, kill many reptiles before they reach the pet store

Pure Propaganda by animal rights activist. In fact the reptile trade as is the entire animal trade industry is regulated and actually very well. When animals are imported most importers try to acclimate them to some degree and sell them ASAP. they do not try to hold animals for long periods of time as their profit decreases with every day through feedings, watering, lighting etc. The actual death rate of animals upon reception buy the importer is very low. It is not in the exporters best business choice either to send animals in poor shape or he/she will loose a client in the importer.

Not one species protected by CITES has become extinct as a result of trade since the Convention entered into force and, for many years, CITES has been among the largest conservation agreements in existence, with now 166 Parties.

Poor capture techniques, compounded by poor shipping methods or inadequate care, kill many reptiles before they reach the pet store. An estimated 90% of wild-caught reptiles die in their first year of captivity because of physical trauma prior to purchase or because their owners cannot meet their complex dietary and habitat needs."

Yes, some capture techniques are poor yet those are very isolated cases especially when you take the mass volume in to account and that in itself is known to the groups you are quoting yet it fits their bill for their propaganda. They try to combine many differing view points and isolated incidents to fit their propaganda's needs. When the facts of any one and all their information combined and analyzed does not support them. In fact biological data and legitimate information actually contradicts their information. Yet they would not dare point to references with credible sources and statistics that have been compiled through legitimate scientific sources. They actually when dealing especially with reptiles prey on the human emotion and its fear of reptiles by compiling data that would suggest them to be deadly or a health hazard on compare to the black plague.

Shipping on the other hand and the laws that govern it are very strict and the receiver in the US can and is fined or jailed in some cases for improperly packed animals that is a fact. Check the Local and Federal laws regarding it. Yet again the group you quote adds this to their propaganda to inflate it and cause it to look like even more destruction is being done when in fact its not true in the majority of cases. Again it is taking a minority and trying to inflate it for their use to look like it is the norm within the industry

Here are the Guidelines for transportation of Animals under CITES mind you local governments may have tougher restrictions but those involved in CITES have agreed to this method and have laws that provide criminal offenses for violations

Rp/3 – Tortoises and land turtles, snakes, lizards

1. General welfare

1.1 Reptiles should have priority over merchandise.

1.21 Only reptiles in good health should be transported.

1.3 Reptiles should not be sedated.

1.41 Reptiles of different species should not be transported in the same compartment or bag.

1.5 Unless reptiles of the same species are known to be compatible with one another, they should not be transported in the same compartment or bag.

1.6 Reptiles should be left undisturbed during transport.

1.72 Reptiles that have become sick or that have been injured during transport should receive veterinary treatment as soon as possible and, if necessary, should be humanely destroyed. A record of any such occurrences should be kept.

1.82 Sick or dead reptiles should be removed from containers, when feasible, and a record kept.

1.9 No feeding should be necessary during transport.

1.10 To avoid cross-infection, and for health and hygiene reasons, human contact with reptiles should be avoided, and they should not be housed near foodstuffs or in places to which unauthorized persons have access.

1.11 No animal should be transported with radioactive material or other substances dangerous to health.

1.12 Containers should be secured to the aircraft, rail wagon, lorry or ship to avoid any possible movement, and should at all times be maintained in a horizontal position.

2. Advance arrangements for transport

2.1 All possible precautions should be taken in advance to ensure that reptiles are not subjected to extremes of temperature or to draughts. This would necessitate planning their movement with due regard to the climatic conditions natural to them, and to the conditions prevailing at their final destination, and also those that will be encountered during transport. Particular attention should be paid to the facilities at any intermediate stops at airports, etc.

2.2 Any bags or other packing material should be destroyed after use; when containers are to be re-used they should be thoroughly cleaned and disinfected before and after use.

2.3 The estimated time of arrival should be notified in advance to the consignee, and also the route of the consignment. Adequate arrangements for its prompt collection at the final destination, and for any necessary movement at transit points, should be made in advance.

2.4 Should any delay in collection be anticipated, then advance arrangements should be made for the housing of the reptiles.

2.5 Cash on delivery facilities should not be used.

3. Container

3.1 The container should be constructed of wood, hardboard, expanded polystyrene, or other material of similar strength, and there should be an adequate framework to ensure that it is strong enough to house the reptiles and to withstand the handling involved during transport.

3.2 There should be no sharp edges or projections on the inside surfaces of the container.

3.3 If any wood preservative or paint is used on the container, care should be taken to ensure that this is not toxic or a skin irritant.

3.4 The container may comprise a number of compartments, provided that the overall size of the container is such that it may be handled without difficulty.

3.5 The container should be sufficiently shallow to prevent reptiles, such as tortoises, from climbing on top of one another, and should be of a size which prevents undue movement of the reptiles, and hence minimizes the risk of injury due to violent movement of the container.

3.6 There should be a lid completely covering the container, fitted with a secure fastening device.

3.7 To ensure an adequate flow of air at all times, ventilation holes should be provided in all walls and the lid of the container. These ventilation holes should be covered with fine gauze.

3.8 Suitable gripper bars or lifting handles should be provided.

3.9 Spacer bars of adequate size should be fitted to all walls, lid and base of the container, to ensure that there is a free flow of air to the reptiles in the event of stacking or close stowing of cargo.

4. Packing

4.1 Snakes and lizards should be placed in suitable bags which are then sealed and labelled "POISONOUS" or "NON-POISONOUS REPTILES" as appropriate. However, bags are not suitable for general transportation of chameleons (Chamaeleonidae) and lizards of a spiny nature, such as some agamas (Agamidae). The first mentioned travel better in containers furnished with a network of rigid perches and the others in containers furnished with soft, loose material into which they can burrow.

4.2 In the case of small specimens, several may be packed in the same bag.

4.3 If necessary, dampened sphagnum moss or foam chippings may be packed around the reptiles – certain species may require salt water.

4.4 The bags should be firmly attached to the container.

5. Labelling and documentation

Durable, waterproof labels should be provided as follows:

5.1 "LIVE REPTILES – DO NOT TIP", "POISONOUS" or "NON-POISONOUS", as appropriate, on all sides and top.

5.2 "THIS WAY UP", with arrows indicating the top, on all sides.

5.3 Consignor's and consignee's name, address and telephone number. Box numbers should not be used as the sole address.

5.4 Detailed list of contents: number of reptiles; scientific name and common names used in the exporting and importing countries.

5.5 Temperature range required.

5.6 Date on which reptiles were packed for transport.

5.7 Official stamp of carrier showing date of his receipt of consignment.

Durable, waterproof means of containing the following documents and other essential information should be firmly attached to the container:

5.8 Duplicate of consignor's and consignee's name, address and telephone number.

5.9 Duplicate list of contents as in 5.4.

5.10 Copies of relevant export and import licences.

5.11 Copy of valid health certificate issued in accordance with the requirements of the importing country.

5.12 Duplicate information regarding temperature range required.

On to the Deaths in captivity. OF COURSE if their needs aren't met they die. If A humans needs arn't met we die.

captive breeding fails to address the leading causes of wild reptile population decline—habitat loss and the pet trade. Contrary to popular belief, the breeding of exotic reptiles in captivity can actually have a negative impact on the species in the wild. History has shown that the increased popularity of exotic animals as pets, whether wild caught or captive bred, often leads to a subsequent increase in the illegal trafficking of their wild counterparts within the U.S. and abroad.

Interesting you only quoted half the the paragraph the author wrote here is the entire Paragraph.

One of the most common assertions made by breeders of exotic reptiles is that captive breeding is necessary to keep the animals from becoming endangered. In reality, breeding reptiles in captivity is not going to save species in the wild because most captive breeding is done outside of official conservation plans and because captive breeding fails to address the leading causes of wild reptile population decline—habitat loss and the pet trade. Contrary to popular belief, the breeding of exotic reptiles in captivity can actually have a negative impact on the species in the wild. History has shown that the increased popularity of exotic animals as pets, whether wild caught or captive bred, often leads to a subsequent increase in the illegal trafficking of their wild counterparts within the U.S. and abroad.

In reading this Paragraph he actually is addressing two points captive breeding for reintrodcution and captive breeding in an attempt to stop wild collection. Yet buy his wording has tried to make it look like its one in the same thing when in fact it is actually several subjects combined that togeather make his point appear valid.

Captive breeding for reintroduction is a very well established and viable option and is being done in many Countries currently with success. Yet his article makes it appear to not work or help.

Captivce breeding to preserves species from over collection IE captive breeding for sale. He uses as a excuse. Many Breeders are doing it for the money pure and smimple and it does have limited success in people buying wild caught which does deter the supply for wild collection.

He even says it in his next paragraph

Many private breeders feel they have accomplished something by producing offspring of rare species even if the animals they produce will never contribute to wild populations. With full respect for biologist and zoos that are actively involved in preserving habitat and breeding imperiled species with the aim of reintroduction, the role of private breeders has largely been one of a willingness to collect rare specimens, breed them, and then trade, sell, or display the offspring for self aggrandizement and/or profit.

He then goes on to the fear tactic of Salmonella by saying.

Exotic reptiles pose a significant threat to public health and safety. Reptiles are common carriers of salmonella. The Center for Disease Control estimates that 93,000 salmonella cases caused by exposure to reptiles are reported each year in the United States. In fact, salmonella associated with pet reptile ownership has been described as one of the most important public health diseases affecting more people and animals than any other single disease.

Well this is what the CDC has to say

What is salmonellosis?

Salmonellosis (sal-mohn-el-OH-sis) is a bacterial disease caused by the bacterium Salmonella. Many different kinds of Salmonella can make people sick. Most people have diarrhea, fever, and stomach pain that start 1 to 3 days after they get infected. These symptoms usually go away after 1 week. Sometimes, people have to see a doctor or go to the hospital because the diarrhea is severe or the infection has affected other organs.

Can animals transmit salmonellosis to me?

Yes, many kinds of animals can pass salmonellosis to people. Usually, people get salmonellosis by eating contaminated food, such as chicken or eggs. However, animals can carry Salmonella and pass it in their feces (stool). Therefore, people can also get salmonellosis if they do not wash thier hands after touching the feces of animals. Reptiles (lizards, snakes, and turtles), baby chicks, and ducklings are especially likely to pass salmonellosis to people. Dogs, cats, birds (including pet birds), horses, and farm animals can also pass Salmonella in their feces.

Some people are more likely than others to get salmonellosis. A person's age and health status may affect his or her immune system, increasing the chances of getting sick. People who are more likely to get salmonellosis include infants, children younger than 5 years old, organ transplant patients, people with HIV/AIDS, and people receiving treatment for cancer. Special advice is available for people who are at greater risk than others of getting this disease from animals.


How can I protect myself from salmonellosis?

After contact with animal feces (stool), wash your hands with soap and running water.
Wash your hands with soap and running water after touching reptiles or any objects and surfaces that a reptile has also touched.
If you have a compromised immune system, avoid contact with reptiles, baby chicks, and ducklings.
If you have a compromised immune system, be extra cautious when visiting farms and contacting farm animals, including animals at petting zoos.

Now with that information you will note that other sources are definitely present in the households not just reptiles so even the CDC cannot positively say its due to reptiles when other factors are included that may cause this salmonella poisoning including factors outside the house.

"Millions of live reptiles are sold each year for the pet trade. In 2001 alone, the United States imported just under 2 million live reptiles. Of these, over 500,000 were green iguanas (Iguana iguana) from Central and South America. Other species commonly found in the pet trade include the boa constrictor (Boa constrictor), ball python (Python regius), panther chameleon (Chameleo pardalis), and red-footed tortoises (Geochelone carbonaria). The United States annually exports more than 8 million red-eared slider turtles (Trachemys scripta elegans), the world's most commonly traded live reptile.

What is the United States' role in world reptile trade?
The United States is a major participant in world reptile trade, and imports an average of 2 million live reptiles and 6 million reptile products each year. Most live reptiles imported into the United States are imported for the pet trade."

Not certain why you posted that. The United States is one of the largest countries for importation of numerous commodities so the idea it imports more reptiles is not really a surpass to anyone.

[SCReptiles]

Cake and M_surinamensis not sure where you guys came from, but I am glad you are here. I have had this debate many times on this site. Usually its just me getting slammed from the left and right by environmentalists spouting out their opinions, based on no fact and calling me ignorant cause I refute their opinions with facts. Also glad Scott finally added a little sanity. Perhaps the tide is turning, we are finally going the way of common sense? Ha ha

so do you agree yet that its not right to sell this animal?

Absolutely not. I do not care if is motive for saving the snake was finical gain, so long as the snake was saved. This guy is obviously not a herper. So when he came across it I am sure his first impression was to kill it. Then he thought maybe he could make a little profit on it, and that is fine by me….it saved the snakes life. There is nothing wrong with profit seeking, its what this nation’s economy is based on. And profit seeking is what has saved the American Alligator. See the thread below.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showt...ight=alligator

SCR i apologize. I have always been told this was in fact for only places that get to cold, where the snakes need to hibernate. I have caught many pigmy rattlesnakes and relocated them to nature preserves seeing the same individuals a few times healthy and fine, ( thanks to a few free taggings). I guess those where just one of a few that make it. Now is this in all venomous species or just pitvipers? I feel awful for potentially killing all of the species i have relocated. I guess it is going to take more thought next time i have to relocate a venomous species.

I respect your statement. Takes a big man to admit when he is wrong. I don’t know how true this holds for other snakes, pitvipers is all I have studied. If some of the snakes you moved were young, they have probably assimilated and are ok. This problem affects the adults much more so then young. One thing I would add, just because a few you relocated seem to be still alive does not mean this was a positive thing you did. It’s possible you moved an individual from a population that carries a lethal pathogen. Some populations will have built a tolerance over the years, moving one of them to another population could be lethal to that population. In dealing with pitvipers, your options are leave them where they are, or move them to some form of captivity. Regardless of what anyone else will say here, there is not a third option.

I missed that part, a lot more people keep and study hots than you may relize. most people are smart enough to know not to go around advertising it thinking they are cool, espishly with pictures of themselves wrangling hots in there avatar. *cough*chuck*cough*

As with most things you post, this is incomprehensible babble and I have no idea what point you are trying to make or why your spell check allowed you to spell realize and especially without the a. =) If your main interest is venomous, that is what you work with, breed, and study, why would you not advertise that fact? Sorry man, I just don’t get what you are trying say here?

hey. the farmer where i found the dens didn't like the rattlesnakes there. should he kill them all? take them all out of the wild?

If you found a den in a farmer, then I feel sorry for that guy. And I don’t blame him, I don’t think anyone would like a rattlesnake den in them. Anyway, if you were to someday find a den on a farm and not in the farmer, here is my answer. A farm is not a public place. If the farmer knows about the animals and is willing to leave them be, then leave the animals where you found them, that is the proper thing to do. If the farmer intends to kill them, remove them. I would rather they be in the wild, then for sale on www.gherp.com. But I would far rather they be for sell at glades, then nailed to a board and for sell on ebay. How is that answer?

[M_surinamensis]

Since it's been brought up... another fairly serious aspect of relocating animals is the degree of specialization many microlocales show in the prey species they will accept. While there are obvious examples of Crotalids that eat like horses, there are many... many examples of pit vipers which are part of a localized population that has developed an instinctive feeding response for the locally avaliable prey so strong that they will often starve to death if the prey item is not provided in sufficient quantity. So a rattler that's been eating rabbits may starve to death in an area with fewer rabbits and more squirrels or vise versa (and that's an oversimplification since there are dozens of potential primary prey species for each individual species of Crotalid and then those primary prey species may have multiple subspecies, color phases or behaviors based on THEIR local population which can all further throw off the feeding instincts).

Couple this with the semi-territorial nature of the animals (not so much combatively territorial except occassionally when breeding, but the tendency for an animal to remain within a small area for all of their activities) and denning sites, basking sites even the ability to find water sources can all become compromised and lead to the death of the animal.

As Chuck said, if you want a rattler to live, you have two basic options... leave it where it is (not always possible or safe depending on where it was encountered) or take it into captivity.

[JD@reptiles]

Sorry chuck. I guess I haven’t been around long enough to know all these excuses... and you really like to focus on a typo I made? I don’t feel the need to spell check because I know how to spell...

[SCReptiles]

i dont'e fill thee neede two usee the spill chick becuese i no howe to spille.

[JD@reptiles]

you're really childish man. that is like really low....

[SCReptiles]

Man, its just outright stupid to misspell as much as you do, then make the outlandish statement “I don’t need a spell check.” Hey, I am a poor speller also, but that is why they make spell check. I’ll like to debate you more, but I can’t discern what you are trying to say?

[Matt_K]

How about you both just drop it now and grow up?? If you two would like to continue your little 'debate' on spelling further, do it privately and stop wasting everyone else's time.

[SCReptiles]

Ok ok ok, I knew something like that was coming soon as I wrote it. You are right, its way off topic and I am sorry. I shouldn’t have been so insulting to old JD….it just blew my mind he said that.

[Matt_K]

It's okay Chuck, no need to apologize. I just don't want to see this thread get closed down as there is a ton of very usefull information in this thread.

[SCReptiles]

We are in accord on that issue. =)