Rattle Snake

[Mustangrde1]

Hmmmmm....Collecting animals for the pet trade is not seriously affecting the wild populations....Im not to sure what you are basing this statement on, and I would like to know as it is obviously false.

Please re-read the entire post. Never was it said it cant be done. In fact I said

Now IM not saying over collection cannot be a problem if it is done to species of special concern or threatened nature but then those species are protected or regulated.

Certanly in the case you mentioned the turtles it was a clear case of over collection and there are other such cases such as the Eastern Indigo and the Crotalus willardi to name but a few. Again though I never said it could not be a problem. I pointed out however to the contrary that

so long as proper conservation and restraint is used

Where proper conservation and limits are placed species do well. However again the most destructive and potentially species extinction threat is Habitat loss. So my information was not false as i made no implications that collection COULD NOT harm a species.

As for Zoo's or Venom Labs. Most Zoos do not take in animals especially those of a suspicious nature IE wild collected as they may introduce some very nasty things to thier collections. Venom Labs are more and more becoming extremely picky about the animals in which they aquire as well. Looking for cbb themselves or very local specific animals for certain venom traits that they may be working with. So the last option is finding a keeper who will take it in which may or may not be a viable option either. So your left to the sell of the animal to try and save its life.

If you are so head set against field collecting then You should not own any pet as by your demand for a product supports the need for its supply. Field collection is a right we all have even if you do not like where its legal of course. Opinions may vary and thats fine but so is someone collecting responcibly and legally.

[M_surinamensis]

What a tangled mess of half truths and emotional garbage this thread is...

First! The relocation thing has been hammered down pretty tightly, so I'll just chime in briefly to say that it's true and then some... Moving herps is not just dangerous to the individual animal, but entire populations of similar species in the area you moved them to and generally very very illegal. While the strong affilitation with a microhabitat that crotalids have shown isn't always present in every herp species there are numerous rather delicate factors that can be upset by introdcing an animal from an area it did not originate. Adding animals (especially adults) is just bad news all around and only the extremely ignorant would see it as a viable alternative.

Secondly... since field collection has been brought up. Collection for the pet trade has not endangered or even seriously impacted a single herptile species' wild population. Ever. Hasn't happened, isn't likely to happen and I'll even go so far as to say that it's an impossibility. First would be a small and reasonable amount of time devoted to determining the species and the legalities of collection for sale. Sounds like the first person to do that was Chuck, who is not only capable of determining the species via a photograph but could and would also tell the individual the legalities of collection and further potential sale. There are a number of participants in this thread who simply assumed that it was "poaching" and painted the collector in a negative light with little or nofactual basis for making this determination and, it seems, a rather weak grasp of the concept of field collection and species population management as a whole.

So, legalities up in the air. Fine, address it politely.

Now the moral aspect... What a load of treehugging bunnykissing ecoliberal GARBAGE I have seen on this thread. I mean my god, do you people have even the slightest idea what you're rambling on about when you type? Because right now all I see are a couple people who got it right and a lot more who have their feet in their mouths and just don't realize it yet. Wild collection of animals when done legally doesn't hurt anything, in fact it HELPS populations (albeit indirectly). Every state (and I'd guess but am not sure providence up there in Soviet Canukustan) employs state biologists who constantly monitor populations of native species. There is a certain population which can be supported with avaliable resources and a certain cut-off point which is needed to maintain a viabvle breeding population... and then this whole big middleground of the population which constitute viable levels, neither underpopulated nor overpopulated. In most areas for most species there's a certain "bag limit" which is allowed without a commercial collection permit and then there are permits issued for numbers above and beyond that (expensive permits which get dropped directly into the coffers for maintaining wildlife areas, when you pay for your treehugging granola eating permit, then you can have a say, until then, cram it). The population is monitored to ensure that it's not damaged (both locally and internationally, CITES tells a very different story about pet trade collection and it's impact on habitat and population than animal rights morons), valuable revenue is generated to ensure habitat preservation and combat a REAL threat and animals are commercially or privately avaliable for those of us who actually like reptiles and want to enjoy them in our lives. Furthermore since the majority of herps aren't apex predators and their natural population inhibitors are going to feel more of an effect from things like habitat encroachment, it's oftentimes beneficial for both the individual animals collected and the population left wild for some trimming to be done.

There's a big fat stupid myth sitting in the herptile trade about collection having a negative impact on wild populations. It's promulgated as truth by the same people who claimed that rainforest destruction would have us all axphyxiating by the mid nineties and that it's wrong to own dogs or test potential cancer drugs on lab mice or eat a hamburger. The agenda for these groups and individuals isn't a positive one for the animals involved, their goals are strictly negative where people are concerned.

As to this specific animal and this specific situation... Chuck was the first one to approach it correctly- identify the species, determine the legalities, suggest an appropriate solution with the best interests of the animal in mind (and actually being educated about what those best interests are). If collection and sale is legal then what's the complaint? If the collection was illegal, suggest the appropriate way to keep the animal alive and in good hands while complying with the law. No emotional baggage or absolute idiotic nonsense about how wild collection is killing wild populations needed.

As a bit of an aside, I challenge the granolagroup here to show me a single herptile which has undergone an irreversable population change due to collection for the pet trade and back it up with a reliable source. I'm not going to accept any of Kaplan's crap and lies about ball pythons either, I want legitimate sources.

How many times did the apparant naysayers have to admit that they didn't read something right or know something important? A few... "Oh, I didn't read that it was collected at a work site." "Oh, I didn't realize relocation was probably lethal." "Oh, I'm just starting a moral crusade about a subject I know buggerall about because I'm not very bright but think I have the ethical high ground and see a chance to jump on someone."

Glad to see the server speed was fixed by the way, I may have to start posting more often again. It was hell there for awhile with pages failing to load and making site use seem like 28k dialup when I was on a cable modem. Happy that was worked out, although the association with Howard Fluker isn't exactly a positive sign.

[M_surinamensis]

Oh and Scott... There are populations which are no longer legally allowed to be collected but you know as well as I do that collection isn't what caused the population problems to begin with. Indigos aren't in some trouble because they were a popular species for pet trade collection, they're in trouble because of their reproductive rate, adult size and habitat destruction. While I apreciate that you're trying to remain polite about this issue and bring these people gently to a better understanding... That's flat out wrong and you know it. There is not a single (herp) species which has ever been put in danger because of pet trade collection. Every example of a species where collection was even a minor issue has a larger and more insidious factor which caused the damage first and foremost.

[Mustangrde1]

I differ with you on that Seamus Indigos Breeding and Habitat loss were in fact part of the reason but so was the over collection for the pet trade . But in a since your correct as well with all factors included harvesting alone would not have destroyed or threatened that species. it was a combination of factors.

[M_surinamensis]

I think you acknowledge what I mean though Scott, collection was not initially a factor in the population problem. Once the problem existed, collection was briefly an issue as it was collection of an unregulated species which was already experiencing a numbers problem because of other sources, rather quickly patched over legally with methods which were, at the time, relatively new in their herp-related application at a time when funding for population studies was less than it currently is.

So my point being... collection has never endangered a species unto itself and it's absurd to even hint that it would, could or has been the case, as your (our) opposition on this matter did.

[Mustangrde1]

Yes and keeping in mind that the methods of 20 years ago or more that were used for biological information gatherring has for the most part been updated or progressed to a point that population density studies are far more accurate now then in the past.

Also reintroduction of species through captive breeding in many species is now shoing much great viability to return many species back to managable and in some cases harvestable levels again.

As for species that are in a concerned light the reintroduction process under proper management with Biologist heading the way. Not groups with their own agendas shows great promise to resitablishing many populations back to thier native ranges.

[JD@reptiles]

wow.. i was mainly pissed about the guy wanting to make a quick buck off of the snake... this is going far into detail, but its some pretty interesting stuff...

but your right. nothing has dangerously become endangered due to collecting, they shut off export as soon as it gets to that line from doing okay | to becoming a species at risk... which is good, but is it worth it coming to that point?

So even if it is habitat destruction thats killing a species off, is the collecting gonna help on top of that? i understand that having and collecting these species means once these are gone from the wild, that you can do a re introductin, but we already have CB lines of these animals as well, the field collecting days should be over. you people shouldn't be going out there to collect, more like clean up garbage, plant tree's. if you love them so much, you should try to save them.

Just another thought,

Granola-eating-tree-hugger

[Mustangrde1]

Jordan.

I am actually workign on a law to re-write the Indigo permit system for allowing persons to own these animals for the soul purpose of reintrodution.

Reintroducing Cbb lines would in short be detremental to the gene pool. I was when i started working on it think that { hey we just use cbb already available} Unfortunately after much research in to the subject and speaking with several people I found out just how bad that can be. It would be far better to collect a limited number of wild species of breeder size and release thier offspring to preserve the gene pool of the locations you plan to collect or reintroduce.

Thats the short of it. when im finished with all the paperwork and refferances etc etc I will post it for all to read. Dont expect it for atleast another month or two at least. It is complex to say the least and part of it being in dealing with politicians its also frustrating. Something though I feel needs to be addressed.

[JD@reptiles]

thats really cool man. im glad to hear that.

[Mustangrde1]

Want my headache lol. Most the Info is on TRR in the news section

[JD@reptiles]

i will check it out. but i like the herpers who keep and try to help wild populations.

[~Suntiger~]

It'd be a pity if the long-winded wordy ones were the only ones people listened to...

According to the Humane Society of the United States :

"Each year the United States imports nearly two million live reptiles and exports about nine million. This poorly regulated trade harms wild populations and their habitats. Poor capture techniques, compounded by poor shipping methods or inadequate care, kill many reptiles before they reach the pet store. An estimated 90% of wild-caught reptiles die in their first year of captivity because of physical trauma prior to purchase or because their owners cannot meet their complex dietary and habitat needs."
http://www.hsus.org/ace/12045

"...captive breeding fails to address the leading causes of wild reptile population decline—habitat loss and the pet trade. Contrary to popular belief, the breeding of exotic reptiles in captivity can actually have a negative impact on the species in the wild. History has shown that the increased popularity of exotic animals as pets, whether wild caught or captive bred, often leads to a subsequent increase in the illegal trafficking of their wild counterparts within the U.S. and abroad."
http://crowlove.com/captivitysucks/reptiles.htm

P.S. I don't even LIKE granola!

[M_surinamensis]

HSUS isn't a reliable source, they are a PeTA style rabidly antihuman group. What else have you got?

[~Suntiger~]

However, I will say hat's off to you on the indigo bit.

[Mustangrde1]

Brief reply. As seamus stated HSUS is not reliable with thier information its more like political propiganda. With the very tough laws and inspection of animals being imported and exported and the citations and jail times awarded for neglect the HSUS really is way off. More to come tomorrow