Talk About... Quarantine Practices!

[Linds]

Hehehe... it's funny how you state your general feelings on a subject, and because it is not what people want to hear, it is automatically termed an insult

Originally posted by Classic
Linds, You cant insult other peoples practices.
Does that "SuperModerator" title mean anything?

When did disagreeing with someone's practices, and considering them to be insufficient by my personal standards, become insulting? I'm sorry you guys find my general opinions so insulting and deeply personal. I fail to see what my position on the site has anything to do with this either, I wasn't flaming anyone or acting anything less than civil, I was simply stating my opinion, as a concerned member. Maybe instead of getting upset about my feelings, all the people that are in opposition to my standing on the topic, could use it as possible perspective in terms of business... because I'm not the only one out there, as mentioned in my previous post, that feels that way. These discussions are meant to be constructive, not turn in to a sorry match of insults and accussations.

Do what you can, no doubt about that. And do what makes you feel comfortable but don't fool yourself into believing that you have a proper quarantine system in place, because you don't.

quarantine (definition #3 by The American Heritage Dictionary): Enforced isolation or restriction of free movement imposed to prevent the spread of contagious disease.

This is in essence, any level, it doesn't need to be the most extensive setup in the world to be considered a method of quarantine, just a series of restrictions paying special attention to the possibility of disease. Just because I don't have government standardized setups, like you may find in a lab, is not to say I don't have a relatively ok system in the works.

Originally posted by Tim_Cranwill
And don't try to make me look like a pet shop, because I'm NOT.

You aren't a pet shop, but some of the practices you have mentioned ARE similar. I worked in a storefront at one time.. we only purchased outwardly healthy animals, and all were treated with BK or Provent-A-Mite upon arrival, anytime animals changed cages, everythign was cleaned with dishsoap then disinfected with betadine before a new animals entered... yet they still had shared supplies, no hands were washed in between, and no animals were given a quarantine period. I merely said, I -personally- consider animals coming from such communal environments to be of high risk, and as such, I treat them the same as I would animals from pet shops. This is how I feel, again, not meant to insult you or anyone else out there. This is just how those situations arrange themselves in my mind o>

And on another note, its YOUR collection, so do what you want. Fully. NO ONE can tell you differently. But keep in mind, the industry is COMPETITIVE. There's a LOT of people producing a LOT of animals. So when all other factors are equal, its going to a feather in your cap to be known for good husbandry and quarantining practices than to not be. There's going to be people offering the exact SAME animals at the exact SAME prices as you. What's going to separate you from the next joe-shmoe?

This was my entire purpose for voicing my thoughts... lol you said it a heck of a lot better than I did though!

[Tim_Cranwill]

Well, come on by anytime and see how "high risk" my animals are. *rolls eyes* But that's a pretty "super" assumption you've made... thanks anyway.

Well, now that we know where each other stands, anyone else "dare"/care to voice their opinions or practices? Please do. I was posting all of this so people could get some ideas.

[Lindze]

Well when ever i have a new snake come in they go to my parents place, i may have left but my snakes havent lol. i dont get many snakes in anyways, so far i should say. But i do wash my hands after handling and each snake gets their own dish and paper towel is used. They usually stay there until a clean bill of health can be given what i mean is no mites, or signs of anyother illnesses. And considering i only have 6 snakes i dont have all the expertise but im learning.


p.s. Tim i saw your set up and i like it alot. Nice clean animals....somewhere i would consider buying from. no where near a pet store environment.

[Linds]

I made no assumptions... I take facts that are given to me and consider them in factoring the overall level risk in my eyes. No matter how reputable the source you buy from, some things take a while to show up, and without some level of quarantine, this can easily overtake a large number of animals before anyone can see it. All the animal's you've posted looked great, Tim, and you can roll your eyes at me all you want, but I need more than looks to ease my mind And there are many people that are far more anal about quarantine and cleanliness out there than I, so instead of getting so offended by my comments, just use them to gain perspective from the other side. As Jeff, said, the market can be quite competitive, and ultimately, things like this may make a difference. o>

Originally posted by Tim_Cranwill
*rolls eyes* But that's a pretty "super" assumption you've made... thanks anyway.

Originally posted by Classic
Linds, You cant insult other peoples practices.
Does that "SuperModerator" title mean anything?

I have still yet to get personal, stating only generalized facts and corresponding opinion, not even directed specifically at anyone, much less 'taking shots'... I don't understand why you guys feel you need to...

[Canada_Club]

I agree with Linds. Why is everyone so jumpy?? Nobody was insulting anyone and if anyone has the right to be offended its Linds. She was the only one not taking it to a personal level. If we can't state our opinions here, what's the point?

I only have a few snakes and they were purchased as CB babies. I bought them at the same time from the same breeder. But if I had a big collection with more animals, I wouldn't be buying adult animals without isolating them first. Just my newbie thoughts though.

[Classic]

Everyone is so jumpy because we were developing a good thread with alot of good info. People were sharing their practices and experiences and then someone has to add in their 2 cents in a negative manner and shoot people down. I dont care much for what you say Linds. But if you want to shoot people down for their practices or beliefs, o wait....isnt that your job to try to prevent?

Brian
HighWaterHerps

[bighillreptiles]

I see everyones point ,good and bad , if linds feels the way that she does, then that is her right to feel that way .I feel that if kept in a complete steril enviroment then the first time some little thing gets in, then the whole collection is at risk because it has no Immunity system in place, these things that we all keep and cherish are suppose to be our passion not our snakes in a bubble , I would buy from Tim any day and feel confident that he has sold the best and the healthiest reptile . As it has been stated, people don't make it selling sick reptiles in this business for long and how long have you been in busness Tim.
Paul at Big Hill Reptiles

[Scales Zoo]

I agree with Linds and Jeff on pretty much all of what they said. Yes, I said it, I agree with Jeff

And I also think that I mentioned basing who I purchase animals from, from the way they keep their snakes, and no one jumped on me for that.

One other thing, is I don't think people appreciate quarantining until you've had something bad happen. I wish I'd have properly quarantined since day 1, and avoided anything bad happening.

Just trying to help people from learning it the hard way I guess.

And for the love of god, please wash your hands Tim. (hehe) In all seriousness though, I think this is one of the most common ways that spread bad nasty's.

And about the question regarding Nix. I'd only use it on snakes. One time, about 3 years ago, just after we set up the building downtown - Sheila phoned me at work to tell me she found a mite on one of the snakes. I told her to nix everything.

So, she also nixed two yellow tegus. They were both dead the next day. Looking back on it, tegus should be some of the hardier lizards, fairly thick skinned and such. I'd be paranoid about using it in the same room as frogs and chameleons - as there are some vapors in the air after spraying the water mixture. I've never researched it, but there may be some info on line.

Ryan

[boidlover]

I've been reading the thread from the beginning. I feel that everyone has given examples of great systems.. it's all about what works for YOU and YOUR collection.

Just using Linds and Tim as examples, Linds feels that the way SHE does it is best for HER and HER collection, Tim does what HE feels is best for HIM and HIS collection.

I do something similar to Lindze. My newest pets stay at my mom's place for a few months, and then when I feel they are ready (usually when I've finally gotten their 'forever' homes setup) they come home to my place. I do this with my live rodents that will become breeders too. Once home I use the same water supply, same air, wash all water dishes and furniture together with some bleach and rinse well.. my male herps have green bowls and furniture, the females red. I can tell who's stuff belongs to who as my collection isn't that large and there is a BIG difference between a king/corn/milk's water dishes/furniture and a carpet pythons. The herps at my mom's have ceramic dishes that are labelled with M1 F1 M2 F2 etc, all in rubbermaids that get bleached and aired between herps and hides are cardboard boxes that get tossed into the garbage.

I also agree with Paul at Big Hill Reptiles. Most of us got immunizations as a kid that are a small amount of the disease that it is helping to prevent. I believe that the animals, whether cute and fuzzy or not all develope small amounts of immunity to something if exposed to small amounts of it.

While YOU might not agree with how someone does something with THEIR collection, it doesn't make THEIR way any better or worse than YOURS, it just means that THEY believe for THEIR collection YOUR practices aren't good enough for what THEY do with THEIR collection. If YOU buy from THEM, use YOUR standards.

To each their own people.. in MOST cases it makes the world function alot better.

[tonyj]

Ryan,
You said you do not use Vapona sticks. You do not recommend their use in snake rooms. I think you said they were 'evil'. Scary.

I am guilty of using Vapona and am aware of its use by a number of other breeders, well one or two, who I think we both hold in high esteem. No names here. however...

......I am not defending the use of Vapona strips, but merely am worried that I am using a product that I shouldn't be. With that in mind, could you enlighten me on the problems I might incur with the continued use of that product, and why? I am hoping that no lasting or serious damage has occured to my collection.

And, please everybody, lets not keep sniping at each other. We are all trying to do what is 'best'.
No one gets up in a morning thinking "I'm gonna get so and so"
today, or at least I don't think they do!
It can be a little frustrating however, when questions are ignored or someone decides to turn an interesting thread into his personal comedy section on the belief that there is nothing else left to be said on a subject.
But, taking offence where no offence is intended is not good. It makes at least two people feel ******.

Lets get back to topic, This thread is both interesting and practical. Hopefully, I am going to learn methods and things I wasn't previously aware of or had not considered. This can only be good.
Thanks and I wish everbody a great day.

[Linds]

Brian,
I obviusly cannot get through to you, you have it in your head that I am insulting people or shooting them down, which I haven't. I've avoided getting personal (unlike you), and stated only facts and my feelings on specific types of practices. I never directed my thoughts at anyone, just because I disagree you autmatically say I am insulting those who practice those ways. I added my 2 cents in the best way one could, so to imply I ruined a perfectly good thread is ridiculous. If anyone should be getting offended here, it should be me, but I'm not. Is one not allowed to disagree? Is that not what discussions are?

Tony,
This my favourite blurb on vapona, so much I don't feel the need to go write my own. I really should just save this quote to notepad so I don't have to look it up when I want to post it

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Ok.


Vapona works by vapours (yikes), NIX is basically just a soap that works mechanically and chemically. The answer wasn't arrogant and it wasn't even aimed at you. I was talking to Dom (hence the usage of his name) and he replied quite nicely to me that he wasn't going to use Vapona. I'm sorry if you have stock in the company or something, but I wouldn't advise ANYONE to use it.

The active ingredient (for organic chemists) is 2,2-dichlorovinyl dimethyl phosphate. That's nasty stuff man. Its a freakin' carcinogen!!! Its also a stomach poison, and its only meant for professional use. I have no idea how Vapona gets away with selling the stuff, but I wouldn't be caught dead (pun intended) with the stuff in my house, near me, my animals, or my family. DDVP is NOT something to fool around with. In fact, I'd rather play on a highway than breathe the stuff in. Call that arrogant. I call it smart.

In small amounts, cancer is fine. Does that mean I want little bits of cancer? No. What is a small amount to you or I of Vapona, could be a lethal dosage to a reptile 1/200th of your size. What about long-term affects? What if it affects fecundity? As a breeder, that would definitely suck for me. NIX is approved for use on HUMAN HEADS! Its a soap that smothers the insects while working as a mild chemical agent. Probably not the greatest thing, but far, far safer than DDVP. Plus its local. Anything that is used as a local agent is 10x more effective and safer than a general agent.

Go here for some analysis: Thanks for your time...


http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles...ichlorvos.html

http://www.prop65news.com/pubs/p65ne...07/920714.html


http://infoventures.com/e-hlth/pestcide/dichlorv.html


Thanks for listening.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Well, let me say this; this thread HAS made me think about my practices a bit more (as I intended it to). I would definitely like to up my standards and methods (as we all would, I'm sure) but the standards methods I choose have to seem "worth it" to <b>me</b> in <b>my</b> situation.

And to Linds (for one last time), if I were to make a post commenting negatively on people that are taking Vet Assistance classes (or whatever it is you're taking) or people with tattoos and piercings, I don't think you would be able to help taking it personally because YOU fit in that category.... it's just human nature. I’m sure there’s no point furthering OUR little discussion.

I see this thread is getting a TON of views (compared to posts), likely due to the “drama” involved but some of you on-lookers should join in the discussion. It’s an important issue. Jeff, you’ve made some comments, can you share some of your methods with us?

[tonyj]

Yikes! My Vapona stockpile is now heading for the garden shed, prior to permanent disposal.
Linds, many thanks for the informative reply. This will definitely be going into my files.
Is there anyone out there who has had problems, short term or long term, that may have been caused by the use of Vapona strips? Please share, I'm concerned.
What alternative ways are there to prevent the spreading of mites in a residence, other than spraying a Nix solution throughout the house?

In the past I have received snakes, some from highly reputable breeders, that were found to be carrying mites when I received them. This I accept as a normal hazzard.
Without the luxury of being able to house my reptiles in a dedicated, isolated snake facility, are there any other tried and trusted methods of killing those mites that may escape their host, before the Nix bath and normal quarantine procedure, and travel throughout the house, without putting the human population at risk?

[Tim_Cranwill]

Here's what I've been doing lately...

- Spray them at the airport
- Don't bring home the packaging or containers they were shipped in
- Treat them when you get home and set them up in their enclosure

That will at least minimize the chances that mites get into your house IF they had them at all.

[Classic]

Ok Linds, I crossed the line and i apoligize.

Brian
hwh