Mice advice...

[Tim_Cranwill]

I know there are already a few threads discussing similar topics, but I would like some more information....

I have 3 colonies of 1.4 and was trying to grow a few babies up into adults. At the same time, I ran out of food and thought I'd try a dog food and rodent pellet mix as I thought others used. To make a long story short, the mice did not take to the dog food and just spread it around as if they were looking for some REAL food. They also ate 1 of the fuzzy mice and bit a hole in the skin of another.

I was just experimenting with the new food and had only been using it for a day or so. They always have lots of water available and just ate a bunch of carrots, greens and normal food the night before.The dog food I bought was not the most expensive brand, but I read the ingredients and they seemed suitable.

Anyway, what I'd like to know is what type of dog food SHOULD I be buying? Is there a specific brand, grade or ingredient I need? Should I mix it with something else? If anyone could offer me their proven methods, I'd be very thankful.

[Linds]

Dog food isn't a really suitable feed for rodents, since it is meat-based and much higher in protein/fat than their natural diets would be. This leads to fat, greasy rodents.
If you must use dog food, then the cheapest stuff is actually the best stuff. The low-quality dog chow is mainly grain-based (whereas the high-quality stuff has much more real meat product).

I use <a href="http://www.mazuri.com">Mazuri</a> for my guys. I'm very happy with it. It's economical and a complete feed forumlated for rodent breeding colonies intended for food for reptiles. Can't get much more specific than that

Another good way is to formualte your own feed with grains and fresh veggies/fruits. You can supplement protein if need be with a *small* amount of low-quality dog chow. But if you carefully choose your ingredients this isn't necessary.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Exactly what Linds said. The cheaper the dog food, the better. Then there is more fillers which are usually vegetable-based (corn, etc etc) and this a better diet for the rodents.

I've never met a rodent that didn't like dog food.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Ok, That's what I was doing before, I'll go back to that.

Thanks.

[morph]

mainsty is the cheapest stuff out there and protein,.fa and otherwise almost matches mazuri levels and its 14$ for i think 18 kg mix it with some corn maybe some black seeds the bit if brocoli voila more rodents than you know what to do with

scott

[Syst3m]

I've heard that using a puppy chow could be nice for nursing mice, but your better off just buying a bag of mazuri rodent chow.

In my experience its actually cheaper when you buy it in bulk then it is to buy dog food. My 25lb bag of mazuri rodent chow cost me 11.50 usd my last bag of dogfood cost me something like 28usd it was 37lb but still there was no cost savings. Another good thing for nursing rodents is a nice gerbil chow. Sunflower seeds are essential for rats and mice in my humble opinion. If you want to throw in some extra fillers for them then use bulk sunflower seed, its fatty wich will help the females gain and keep weight while nursing and carrying but don't put to much in unless you like obese mice.

As far as making your own rodent chow good luck in doing that. Getting the right amount of vitamin K for your rats/mice is one of the hardest parts of making your own feed. I've got an ingredient list for it somewhere on my machine if you want it. Complete with what you need to get the right amounts of vitamin K. But Mazuri is by far cheaper and much better suited for your needs.

Remember to buy in bulk, If you have a Pet Supplies Plus around you go there and find the bulk food aisle. You can either get the lab block food in bulk or buy it in the bag. My Pet Supplies plus just sells the mazuri rodent chow at 50 cents a pound bulk and 44cents per pound in a 25lb bag.

Good luck.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Cool, I'll have to find the Mazuri stuff. I live kind of in the middle of nowhere, so we'll see if anyone carries it out here.

No matter what I've been doing, I can't seem to get the results I've expected.

Thanks for the advice....

[Cas]

Syst3m, could you post that list, just for interest's sake?

Dawn

[Syst3m]

*1 part by volume cooked wholegrain rice (you can cook large batches & freeze
it for convenience)
*2 parts crushed barley or oats, or a mixture (or porridge oats)
*1/2 part millet or cockatiel seed (spray millet is just the same as the millet you buy in packets)
*1/2 part molasses - packed full of vitamins, and sweet too, so it binds the food together, and mice like it.

Additional nutritional supplements can be added if desired:
*1/4 part Brewers' Yeast flakes - B vitamins to keep them healthy & happy
*1/2 part wheatgerm
*Cod liver oil according to manufacturer's recommended dosage.

This particular one does not meet the vitamin K recommended daily intake for mice but is a good cheap substitute. Also throw in a small quantity of sunflower seeds daily for nursing mice.


This is a homemade mix that I have formulated using items from my local supermarket (pictured above right). As often as I can, I buy from the bulk bins or the store brands. The only item I tend to splurge on is the Total cereal, because it is very nutritious, and recommended by both the Rat Fan Club and my vet. Overall, it costs me about $10 to put together the grain mix, which lasts me about three months.

1 lb. dry rolled oats
Quaker is fine, but may be more expensive; I buy mine in the bulk bin at the supermarket.

1 lb. puffed wheat cereal
Malt-O-Meal, Quaker or Kashi, which is available in natural food stores. Cheerios are also a viable alternative, if the other two are not available. I use the Quaker, as it has no sugar.

1 lb. puffed rice cereal
Quaker is the best brand, because it contains no sugar. Rice Krispies really are not recommended.

1 small box Total Cereal
Highly recommended by The Rat Fan Club and my veterinarian for its exceptional nutritional content, due to added vitamins and minerals. It's only available in the United States. If you can't get Total, you can add a children's vitamin/mineral tablet to their diet, or use small animal vitamins.

1/4 to 1/2 lb. roasted, unsalted soy nuts
These are somewhat high in protein, but contain valuable cancer-preventing agents, so they are a good addition to the mix. Not all rats like them. May also be called roasted soy beans -- I think the "nuts" thing is a marketing ploy for humans! ;~D If you can't find them, you can work soy into their diet in other ways, such as soy milk, tofu, soy crumbles and soy yogurt. Raw dried soybeans can also be toasted at home - Roasted Soy Nuts Recipe.

1/2 lb dried fruits
I have recently switched from a fat-free mix to just getting bananas and cranberries. The bananas offer potassium, and cranberries are good for the urinary tract. If you don't want to include the fruit, you don't have to. I know some people prefer to give their rats fresh fruits, instead. I do this when I can, but we don't always have fruit in the house. Some people also avoid fruits in general due to high sugar content. Use your discrection and common sense.

1/2 lb dry pasta
The tri-colored spirals, with spinach and tomato flavor. Nice and crunchy for the teeth, and a good source of carbohydrates, which helps balance the protein in the soy nuts.

1/4 lb sunflower seeds
My supermarket sells them shelled and unsalted in bulk, so that is what I have been buying. The large sunflower seeds for birds (the black and white ones) are good, too.

1/4 lb muesli (optional)
Sometimes (especially in winter), I have a hard time getting the rolled oats in bulk -- too many people eating oatmeal, I guess. I found a mix called "muesli" in the bulk department that had a lot of interesting items in it that the rats really like, including rolled oats, granola, pumpkin seeds and raisins. It offers a nice variety, but I would use it sparingly due to sugar content.


This one includes total cereal that helps supliment the needs for vitamin K in the diet but again I'm not sure if its enough for the mice.


I'm still at a loss for the ones I found that gave information to about other sources of vitamin K, but the second one should be just fine. I STILL Do not recommend feeding any of these mixes to nursing mice or rats. I do not think that either of these mixes alone will be healthy for a nursing mother mouse. Lab Blocks with a gerbil mix is still the best way to go for nursing moms Or the Mazuri lab blocks specifically for nursing rats/mice.
Even though all mazuri rat/mouse feeds are good enough for nursing moms, The extra is always helpful.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Great info Syst3m! Thanks....

[tai_pan1]

Thanks for the info, I saved it to a word document for future reference.

[Cas]

TY Syst3m... gives me a good idea for healthy additions to my rodent's diet (I'm feeding hagen nutriblocks, as that's what I can find here).

Does anyone have the list of ingredients (and the % vitamins, minerals, etc) in Mazuri? Could somone post it, or a link to it? Would like to compare it to my nutriblocks

(just got some adorable new mice (ty mary!), and now that my mouse population is growing I want to make sure I'm giving them good nutrition)

Ty,
Dawn

[Syst3m]

Nutrients Minerals
Protein, % 24.0 Ash, % 6.3
Arginine, % 1.54 Calcium, % 0.95
Cystine, % 0.33 Phosphorus, % 0.65
Glycine, % 1.26 Phosphorus (non-phytate), % 0.35
Histidine, % 0.59 Potassium, % 1.10
Isoleucine, % 1.18 Magnesium, % 0.20
Leucine, % 1.91 Sodium, % 0.28
Lysine, % 1.40 Chloride, % 0.50
Methionine, % 0.43 Sulfur, % 0.26
Phenylalanine, % 1.12 Iron, ppm 260
Threonine, % 0.92 Zinc, ppm 93
Tryptophan, % 0.31 Manganese, ppm 80
Valine, % 1.24 Copper, ppm 14
Iodine, ppm 1.1
Fat, % 6.5 Selenium, ppm 0.18
Linoleic Acid, % 1.29 Cobalt, ppm 060

Fiber (Crude), % 3.8 Vitamins
Neutral Detergent Fiber, % 11.9 Vitamin K (as menadione), ppm 3.2
Acid Detergent Fiber, % 4.6 Thiamin Hydrochloride, ppm 17
Riboflavin, ppm 5.0
Nitrogen-Free Extract (by difference), % 49.4 Niacin, ppm 84
Metabolizable Energy, kcal/g 3.27 Pantothenic Acid, ppm 15
Choline Chloride, ppm 2,000
Folic Acid, ppm 3.3
Pyridoxine, ppm 6.0
Biotin, ppm 0.19
Vitamin B12, mcg/kg 20
Vitamin A, IU/gm 15
Vitamin D3(added), IU/gm 1.7
Vitamin E, IU/kg 67
Carotene, ppm 0.75


thats Mazuri 5663, thats what I use. Goto Mazuri.com and look up the rodent section they list the breakdown and the ingredients.

[Syst3m]

Ooops forgot the ingredients.

Dehulled soybean meal, ground corn, ground wheat, wheat middlings, animal fat preserved with BHA, cane molasses, fish meal, ground oats, porcine meat meal, dehydrated alfalfa meal, dried beet pulp, wheat germ, brewers dried yeast, calcium carbonate, dried whey, salt, calcium propionate (a preservative), dicalcium phosphate, ground soybean hulls, menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite (source of vitamin K), choline chloride, dried yucca shidigera extract, corn gluten meal, DL-methionine, cholecalciferol (source of vitamin D3 ), vitamin A acetate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, d-alpha tocopheryl acetate (source of natural vitamin E), soybean oil, thiamin mononitrate, folic acid, nicotinic acid, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, cyanocobalamin (source of vitamin B12 ), manganous oxide, zinc oxide, ferrous carbonate, copper sulfate, zinc sulfate, calcium iodate, cobalt carbonate.


There thats the 25 pound bag of standard rodent chow!
Suitable for breeding mice!

[Scotty Allen]

Cranwill, if you live "in the middle of nowhere" there should be a farm supply store nearby. I'll bet they can get Mazuri chow for you if you tell them exactly what you need. You may have to pre-pay the first bag to convince them that you really do want the stuff. I've had some pretty strange reactions in the past when trying to buy mouse or rat chow from a feed store, I've even been asked if I'm sure it's not poison that I'm after.