Emerald Problem?

Zoe · 08-06-04, 12:15 PM

Hi,

A few months ago I got an adult male ETB. His price was slightly lower than normal, so I was a little apprehensive, but I went to see the seller's place and it looked great. He explained that his prices were low because he sold, for the most part, to petstores, and that he bought in bulk. He told me that the ETB I wanted was from a breeder in South America, and that he was eating and healthy.
I brought him home and though he didn't eat and had a small mite problem, he was fine - active, healthy looking and alert.
A month or so later I moved, and took him with me. Up till now he hasn't eaten and though he could stand to gain a little weight, he is by no means terminally skinny, and seemed to be doing well.
However, he doesn't seem to be doing so good now. Normally when I clean his rubbermaid I do it as unobtrusively as possible, but today I thought it was time for a complete scrub down. I took him out and noticed he was very, very listless. He still responded to things like me taking him out, spraying him with water etc, and he is always on one of his branches, but he seemed a little out of it. He wasn't flipping his head around but it seemed to be lolling a little bit, and when he got a little irritated with my looking him over, his "attack" seemed a little pathetic (a few lounges towards me with his head, but no hissing or striking. he's never hissed at me before but i thought he seemed a little pitiful today). His mites seem to be gone but because of my reluctance to use anything too strong (and knowing how mites are), he may still have a few that I have yet to kill.

Any ideas or suggestions as to what may be going on? Could it be a lack of food? Like I said, he isn't really skinny, but should I start trying new methods to get him to eat (ie braining, live, really hot, scented etc etc)? Could this be a result of some internal parasite? I'd rather avoid having to see a vet because first of all, there are no herp vets in this province that I know of, and second, I don't want to move him back and forth any more than necessary.

Thanks,
Zoe

dave68 · 08-06-04, 12:37 PM

unfortuneately you will probably have to make a trip to the vet for some de-worming meds. Snakes don'tshow signs like mammals when they are hungry etc... when you can notice that a snake is skinny or starts to act listless or weak then usually it is to late. I would suggest finding a vet or other experienced keeper and have them help with an assist feeding. The deworming is imperative that you do it ASAP. Good luck and happy herping!

Dave

Rob McRobbie · 08-06-04, 12:46 PM

Hello Zoe,

I think everyone here is probably going to tell you that a vet is a must.. I know, this sucks if there is nobody in the area, and it is pretty difficult to get a stool sample to ant vet for that matter if the snake isn't eating.

Do you have any pic you could post of the snake and it's cage? That would be cool if you could. Also, what methods have you tried to feed this guy? You mentioned some methods in your post that I would absolutely try (that being live prey and really really hot f/t mice/rats..) If you haven't tried live yet, I suggest you do.. Some breeders recommend dwarf hamsters for finicky emeralds...

You mention that snake might still have mites.. Do you see any or are you just making that conclusion based on the treatment you used? It would definitely be a good thing to get rid of them completely if you haven't yet.

One more thing that might be a contributor is dehydration. This will cause a snake to be quite lethargic like you mentioned. Try the skin pinch test and see if it bounces back into position after you give it a little pinch.

I hope this has helped Zoe.. I have found that after a good shed, a few meals and decent hydration, emeralds start to acclimate quite well.

Rob

CraigC · 08-06-04, 01:05 PM

Hi Zoe
Turn off the heat a couple of hours before it gets dark and take anything extraneous out of the cage. Completely cover the cage with something except for a small area up at the top so that it is almost totally dark, then put in a good size rat pup or small rat (depending on his size). Make sure the rat is well fed a couple of hours before you put it in and then leave it in all night. Do this for several nights in a row if he doesn't take it first time. If that doesn't work try the hamster. It's a risk leaving it in overnight, but it's what we had to do to get a reluctant WC adult male to start feeding. Only had to do it 2-3 times and then he started to take prekilled.

I agree with trying to find a vet and I hope you have the ETB quarantined.

Keep us posted.
Karen

augerdvm · 08-06-04, 02:18 PM

Zoe:
GEt your snake to a vet asap. can you get in contact with the atlantic vet college???? they should have someone avail to help you....
sounds like this ETB is likely wild caught and is likely overloaded with parasites !!!! Panacur and Metronidazol are likely required and cant hurt.....
Try to palpate (feel) along his belly.....if you feel lots of hard lumps, he may be constipated & needs an enema (stress can lead to dehydration & constipation)...and if nothings coming out then nothings going to go in...
The snake IS worth your time & money

Good luck
Daren

augerdvm · 08-06-04, 02:21 PM

in addition...nite infestation will lead to anemia (low red blood cells) and lead to severe lethargy....bloodwork would be indicated to assess the snakes health....

Daren

augerdvm · 08-06-04, 02:23 PM

in addition...mite infestation will lead to anemia (low red blood cells) and lead to severe lethargy....bloodwork would be indicated to assess the snakes health....

Daren

thunder · 08-06-04, 07:19 PM

also, i would talk to the person who sold it to you. he said it was healthy and it turned out to have mites an possibly other parasites. he should help you with the vet bill give you a partial refund if it dies.

Zoe · 08-07-04, 03:39 PM

Hi!
Thanks for all the replies:

Quote:

I think everyone here is probably going to tell you that a vet is a must.. I know, this sucks if there is nobody in the area, and it is pretty difficult to get a stool sample to ant vet for that matter if the snake isn't eating.

Well, I called around for herp vets and found one, but frankly she doesn't seem qualified to do this sort of thing. She just doesn't see enough herps around here, and didn't seem to be too comfortable with the subject when I spoke to her on the phone. Also, I just haven't had good experience with vets. They never tell me anything I don't already know, and half the time the animals end up dying anyway. Which is why I'm reluctant to pack him, drive an hour away, have him poked and prodded (and pay vet fees), just to have him die or to have her say that he might have this or might have that. I am planning on making an appointment with her if, in a few days, he hasn't eaten or improved at all, but I'd rather avoid it if I can.

Also, what wormers are useable for snakes? I have a number of them here (Strongid and Eclavan come to mind) - can I use them? Or is Panacur better?

Quote:

Do you have any pic you could post of the snake and it's cage? That would be cool if you could. Also, what methods have you tried to feed this guy? You mentioned some methods in your post that I would absolutely try (that being live prey and really really hot f/t mice/rats..) If you haven't tried live yet, I suggest you do.. Some breeders recommend dwarf hamsters for finicky emeralds...

I haven't tried too much in the ways of feeding. I always offer as hot as I can, and I offered him live when I first got him, but since then it's just been warm/hot ft mice (i've been trying to bug him as little as possible.) As for the cage I don't have a picture, but it's just a large rubbermaid with 4 branches (2 each way) and a water dish on the bottom to keep it humid, and a heat pad partly under the water.

Quote:

You mention that snake might still have mites.. Do you see any or are you just making that conclusion based on the treatment you used? It would definitely be a good thing to get rid of them completely if you haven't yet.

Until today I hadn't seen any mites in there, but I was not certain that I had gotten rid of the problem completely. I looked at him quite closely today and he still has some. I resorted to using Nix on him (before I had soaked him in water and sprayed the cage down with Nix). I'm starting to think that, as you suggest, he may be dehydrated. He isn't eating and has a had a small but persistant (until today, hopefully) mite problem. That's gotta be draining.

Quote:

GEt your snake to a vet asap. can you get in contact with the atlantic vet college???? they should have someone avail to help you....
sounds like this ETB is likely wild caught and is likely overloaded with parasites !!!! Panacur and Metronidazol are likely required and cant hurt.....
Try to palpate (feel) along his belly.....if you feel lots of hard lumps, he may be constipated & needs an enema (stress can lead to dehydration & constipation)...and if nothings coming out then nothings going to go in...
The snake IS worth your time & money

i don't think he's constipated, as he has passed urate since being here. Also, he isn't wild caught. He was captive bred, just not in Canada. I suppose the guy could have been lying (but, like i said, he looked really legit), but the snake didn't look anything like the WC emeralds I've been in petstores. About the blood/mites thing: yes, I'm starting to agree with you more and more. He had a few mites on him earlier today so I'm sure they've been there the whole time. I wish I had used something stronger when I started out but he had just moved in. Hopefully I've caught it in time - he's still on his branch and he is very reactive to water and touch.