The cost of doing business???

[Vanan]

I think it better if I were to clarify what I meant. I said primarily businessperson or hobbyist. Primarily being what got you into snakes first. Some have always loved snakes and think it cool if they could make a buck at it too. Some others see hobbyist making the buck and decide to keep snakes to make a buck. Primarily is the keyword. I've had to ask myself plenty of times when I have failed breedings, why I keep snakes. Now I don't care as much about breeding as I used too. Heck, I have more lone males now then I did before.

Anyways, wasn't aiming that comment at anyone, but I just happen to have known a couple of people who got into snakes cos of the potential $. Sad but true. Often enough, those "businesspeople" don't last long in this hobby.

[Katt]

I'd be extremely disappointed if you couldn't be both.

I think that it's not possible to be a business person and a hobbyist. To survive you have to look at your collection in a different way, than say, a person with 3 cornsnakes. But this is semantics and it doesn't really matter what I think, so you can just skip over the rest of the post, if you like.

As for the connection with the point of this thread. Well, a person with three cornsnakes who is selling one doesn't have the same "cost of business" as a business breeder who sells 300 snakes. Thus, the 3cum2 corn person, can negate a shipping and handling charge of X. This may cause a buyer to buy from them, instead of ABC Corn Breeder. Course one lost sale, isn't a big deal, but if a lot of 3cum2 corn people sell then, ABC is going to feel it, especially if ABC is charging X ontop of Y. So there is incentive for f/t breeders to "swallow" the cost of shipping. This has been said before, but I did hijack the topic so I must tie it all back.

As for being pompous. I'm not sure where you got that feeling Tim. I did not mention anywhere, that there is some sort of "nobility" in being a straight hobbyist than a full time breeder. In fact, if you read a few pages earlier, I wish best of luck to full time breeders b/c it is not something I could due, to the stress of it. So if I struck a nerve of some sort or made anyone feel less b/c they want to make a few bucks, then I'm sorry, that is definitely not my intention. After all, I've used money from snake sales to buy stuff, usually more snakes!

I am enjoying the evolution of this discussion. Good job guys!

[jjaj02]

The way I look at the whole hiking prices thing is this. I also breed dogs. I ask quite a bit for my dogs. It took me two weeks to sell them both. If I would have asked very little for them they would have sold in two days. The point is that they still sold. Yes, it took a little longer. But they still sold. And these people who were willing to pay the price for them understood that they are of quality and I know that because they were willing to pay the price for them they will be well taken care of. Like someone did a study about cheap animals. These people that were only willing to pay a few bucks for them either didnt have the money to put into them or didnt care to because the way they looked at it is that they only paid a bit for them so who cares. If something happens they can just get another one. I'm sorry to talk about dogs in a snake forum but it all stems back to the same idea. Just like when you see a dog in a pet store or a snake for that matter. They are selling them (most of the time) for an outrageous price. And people still pay it. Even tho they don't know where the dog (or snake) came from, the quality of the animal, or for that matter, anything about the animal. Personally I would buy off of the person that could sit me down and tell me something about the animal. Not some pet store that probably cant tell me anything. But thats the way people work and it works so well for pet stores because people come in and see something they like and without even thinking about it or doing any research they buy it. Thats where breeders have a problem or a lot of us anyways. People cant just wander into our store in a mall and say oooooh ooooh i want that and buy it. Impulse buying a lot of the time is rare for a breeder. Its these people that have done the research and seen all these backyard breeders on the net selling extremely low priced animals and wanting everything for nothing. Why can there never be an in between????

[Jeff_Favelle]

I think that it's not possible to be a business person and a hobbyist. To survive you have to look at your collection in a different way, than say, a person with 3 cornsnakes. But this is semantics and it doesn't really matter what I think, so you can just skip over the rest of the post, if you like.

Well said, but I totally disagree, LOL!

To me, that's like saying that Jarome Iginla can't go play street hockey as a hobby and enjoy it because he plays in the NHL for a living. Or a commercial fisherman can't go fly-fishing as a hobby on the weekends. Or a video game developer/artist can't play Xbox or Playstation anymore because he does it for a living. That's totally ludicrous as far as I'm concerned. Just because I have a bunch of snakes that reproduce and sell for coin, doesn't mean that I can't be a hobbyist. The two are NOT mutually exclusive.

I totally get what you're saying about the "primarily" part Vanan. For sure. I see it with the Ball market. Its not a bad thing (hey, to each their own), but I totally agree with you that there are TWO separate people investing into the industry in that sense. Good pick-up. I forgot about that aspect.

[Jeff_Favelle]

The way I look at the whole hiking prices thing is this. I also breed dogs. I ask quite a bit for my dogs. It took me two weeks to sell them both. If I would have asked very little for them they would have sold in two days. The point is that they still sold. Yes, it took a little longer. But they still sold. And these people who were willing to pay the price for them understood that they are of quality and I know that because they were willing to pay the price for them they will be well taken care of. Like someone did a study about cheap animals. These people that were only willing to pay a few bucks for them either didnt have the money to put into them or didnt care to because the way they looked at it is that they only paid a bit for them so who cares. If something happens they can just get another one. I'm sorry to talk about dogs in a snake forum but it all stems back to the same idea. Just like when you see a dog in a pet store or a snake for that matter. They are selling them (most of the time) for an outrageous price. And people still pay it. Even tho they don't know where the dog (or snake) came from, the quality of the animal, or for that matter, anything about the animal. Personally I would buy off of the person that could sit me down and tell me something about the animal. Not some pet store that probably cant tell me anything. But thats the way people work and it works so well for pet stores because people come in and see something they like and without even thinking about it or doing any research they buy it. Thats where breeders have a problem or a lot of us anyways. People cant just wander into our store in a mall and say oooooh ooooh i want that and buy it. Impulse buying a lot of the time is rare for a breeder. Its these people that have done the research and seen all these backyard breeders on the net selling extremely low priced animals and wanting everything for nothing. Why can there never be an in between????

Exactly man. When was the last time you saw a rescue Pied or a rescue Blackhead? LOL!

The problem with the easier-to-breed species is that the supply had outstripped the demand, allowing, nay, MAKING the no-name breeders sell the animals for less for fear of being "stuck" with all the babies.

Elementary economics. When supply is greater than demand, the "demanders" can set the price (within reason). And when the demand is greater than the supply, the "suppliers" (breeders) set the price (within reason). Its basic, but it applies. And it applies to snakes and snake breeding.

[ReptiliansDOTca]

I agree with Jeff on the whole hobby / profession median. As for the shipping expenses, I think that is something that we unfortunately have to suck up, and accept as being included with the fee for a reptile. However, for something such as a $20.00 gecko, I believe adding $15.00 or so for time and effort is reasonable, for the obvious reasons. This is of course, my humble opinion.

The best way to find a happy middle point, I would say designate specific shipping dates. For example, depending on how much you sell, once a week, two times a month, once a month, or whatever best fits your individual time frame / situation.

Elementary economics. When supply is greater than demand, the "demanders" can set the price (within reason). And when the demand is greater than the supply, the "suppliers" (breeders) set the price (within reason). Its basic, but it applies. And it applies to snakes and snake breeding.

I was in the middle of typing something surprisingly similar to that. I personally believe that no reptile should be less then $100.00, $75.00 at least. Why? I just cannot justify the life of a living creature for $15.00. In addition, when reptiles can't be purchased with a childs weekly allowance, this filters out those who are, often times, not capable of holding the responsibility. After all, one is much more likely to put effort into something they paid $100.00 dollars, then something they can replace with an additional 20 dollar bill.

[ReptiliansDOTca]

I am a little off topic here, but on the above discussions it is somewhat relevant. Has anyone other then me ever thought what happens to the reptiles sold at a reptile expo? Lets face it, more then 50% of the purchases are either impusle-based, or unexpected. And of this 50%, I would say more then 25% of the times the purchasers do not have a home prepared for the reptile. I mean, how many bearded dragons, for say $40.00 get sold? Lots. To whom? Often times, as a first lizard. This whole reality scares me, to say the least.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Katt and Vanan, while I was feeding off of some of your words for my last post, I wasn't trying to imply that you two specifically felt that way. But I have noticed comments like that being made here and there by people and it always irks me. I guess I just chose this moment to speak out…

I may have a medium sized collection (40-50 snakes + offspring) and I do breed or plan to breed the majority of them but if you sat and talked to me about snakes, you would see that business is <b>not</b> the main thing on my mind. It <i>is</i> on my mind but it's far down on the list. With that "business" mentality comes concerns for things like "the costs of doing business" but that DOES NOT mean I care less about my snakes or snakes in general than anyone here. Trust me. It just means I don’t like to throw money away… but I also find it just as easy to write costs like that off as “the cost of having a hobby”.

Peace.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Excellent posts David! I agree completely!

[Jeff_Favelle]

I agree too Tim. And when you look at it, packing and handling is NOT the cost of YOUR hobby. Its the cost of SOMEONE ELSE'S hobby that YOU have to pay! LOL! But it IS a business cost. and if you breed snakes, it IS the cost of production. At least, it always has been. Feeding, electricity, web-sites, advertising, new purchases, medication, tools (tongs, incubators, hemostats), new cages, shipping containers, cage decor, bedding, time, digital cameras, PO Box, cell phone, business cards, computer, printer, software, facilities, did I mention time?, and many many other costs have to be factored in. This makes a LOT of certain species not viable for breeding for anything other than enjoyment. and there's still LOTS of professional breeders that STILL work with these animals because they LOVE DOING SO, and not for the money. This makes them a hobbyist, AND a business-person.

[Ixidor]

If im selling a 500 dollar snake, whats 20 bucks I mean if you cant pay the extra 20 bucks to ensure that the animal gets there safely and my time and effort to make sure the animal is quality than they probably cant afford the reptile

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

JEFF FAVELLE:

Just our 2 cents…

Wow very nice post and pretty direct too. We understand your point and know about taking the loose too. In some cases you get the shipping included on a high value purchase or sale or large quantity order. Some times we get lucky on orders we do when purchasing for our collection. And in doing sales we try and organize with the buyers to be on same shipping date. It’s not much but we rather do 3 - whatever shipments on 1 day, that way we save expenses you mentioned. Being our drive to the airport is almost 3 hours and driving in this great gas economy we have at 93 cents a liter we figure more to airport better than 1 a week, and we have had great co-operation with our customers because of this.

As for packaging and handling these prices are pretty much the same. And yes once you factor in all the things you mentioned like box to labels and ink it can get pricey but there are few things that can be done about that. But we like to make sure the animal gets the best possible shipping method we can provide and the means that the airline can visually see and care for the package. I mean both Air Canada or West Jet are good at times, but we let the customer choose if both are options and that flight price is always additional to the buyer. After they decide on what airline and they accept shipping dates then it becomes the additional cost of protection like flight insurance from Air Canada only. But this is more of a factor of expensive orders or a particular animal but the buyer needs to decide if this is needed.

As for the animal cost, we try and stay market value - only a few have an added value due to the care put into them over time because we feel if the buyer can see that taking an adult animal did have much care put into it and they most likely see it as a breeder and the most part of the work is done with then they should realize there is additional costs included in the animal value.

It’s hard to sell an animal when the buyer is trying to low ball you even after the best you can try is break even, but we feel the animals speak for themselves and after communicating that with the customers we try our best to make the deal work out for both parties. But even then you still will find buyers willing to low ball you its part of business in this hobby and a few others. But with competition comes bargaining and it comes down to the buyer wanting to pay on quality or budget.

Being we are in Manitoba, I and few others here that ship and receive have no choice but to deal with the expenses you mentioned on shipping. Not saying it is not the same in each province, but selection is fewer here…lol.

I guess the best way to save some expense is to ask the airline does it mind if we can we just tape the animals to the wheels and tell the buyers to get them on the runway, lol – joking of course. But I bet the cost would be 0.07 cents, lol.

But great post and comments by all that shared.

Cya…

Tony

[Slannesh]

Quoting from ReptillianDOTca:

I was in the middle of typing something surprisingly similar to that. I personally believe that no reptile should be less then $100.00, $75.00 at least. Why? I just cannot justify the life of a living creature for $15.00. In addition, when reptiles can't be purchased with a childs weekly allowance, this filters out those who are, often times, not capable of holding the responsibility. After all, one is much more likely to put effort into something they paid $100.00 dollars, then something they can replace with an additional 20 dollar bill.

Can't say I agree with that. Afterall aren't Mice and Crickets living creatures as well?

I think the bottom line is that supply and demand drives price. If things are easily bred and have a relatively low cost to keep they won't be expensive for long regardless of how cool the new morph and such. Just look at Blizzard Leopard Geckos, they were $1000 just a few years ago and now are usually around $100.

To comment on the original topic of the thread I think that it really depends on the profit margins we're talking about. If you deal in $35 geckos then yeah, that $12 to pack them is taking a major cut of your profits and at least a signifigant portion should be charged in addition to the shipping to the customer. If however you're dealing with a $500 or $5000 animal that same $12 seems more like gouging to get the most money you can out of a client rather than recovering the cost of doing business. Now if it cost $200 to pack a $500 snake then I would again agree that the cost of properly packing them is taking a major bite out of your profits and would not be surprised that if it were charged to me when I was making such a purchase.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Great post Tony. All the hard work will pay off, trust me.

If im selling a 500 dollar snake, whats 20 bucks I mean if you cant pay the extra 20 bucks to ensure that the animal gets there safely and my time and effort to make sure the animal is quality than they probably cant afford the reptile

Ok, why stop there? What about a $400 dollar animal? What about a $50 dollar animal? Where's the grey area. If you're going to make a fixed dollar amount where it should be covered, what is the amount? Is the amount the same for all breeders? Is the amount the same for all countries and/or territories? Its easy to say "ahhhhh,...what's twennny bucks"? Indeed, what is 20 dollars. But what if you ship 60 times a year? That's $1200. It starts to add up.

But I think the general consensus is that its a cost of production, even though it falls long after production and occurs AFTER the sale. And that's fine, because that's the way its always been.

Thanks for the replies guys, keep 'em coming. Couple more and we'll be in the Top 10 threads!!

Great post, again, Tony.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Good points Slannesh! Thanks for participating man! I agree. Percentage-wise, you HAVE to eat the costs on the higher-dollar transactions For sure.