spilotes are canniballistic?

[Retic chic]

I have heard that they are, can be, and are not. Which is correct? We got a pair from a friend who kept them together all the time. We were told to keep them seperately by another friend who said they can be canniballistic. Now, I am second guessing the info, and since we want to breed them, I need to know for sure.

Are they known to be cannibals, or are they safe to leave together overnight, or for a few days at a time? The care sheets and literature I have found is confusing at best.

[Katt]

I believe spilotes are cannibalistic, like kings, in that they do eat ectothermic prey. Like chameleons and kings, one shouldn't house two different sized ones together b/c there is the possibility that one will eat or harm the other one.

However on the flip side, I keep my Appalachicola kings together all the time. I haven't had a problem yet, but that isn't to mean that one day I may not find one dead half in the mouth of the other.

There are dangers to keeping snakes together, more so with species that are known to eat their own kind. You can keep them together b/c they might not eat each other. There's still a risk.

[Unregistered]

I agree with Katt, I've heard reports of these guys taking other subspecies of ratsnakes and occasionally there own if a hungry wild one stumbled across a smaller one. I don't know but , I myself would keep them separately and maybe introduce the female to the male"s enclosure during breeding season for short periods of time to see if they stir up some breeding activity. Also maybe during the time that they're together keep the female well fed just so she isn't hungry enough to maybe eat her mate. I haven't kept this species but i'm going mostly by what I do to breed kingsnakes and ratsnakes so maybe this will help.

[Vanan]

Heck, if even hognoses can cannibalise, I don't see why there's even a question about housing the spilotes seperate. lol. Keeping in mind that people of housed similarly sized kings for years with no incident.

Although, if breeding is the goal, I'd say sleep with one eye open. I'd look for initial signs of courtship (twitching, chasing etc.). If none occur within the first approx 30 mins, I would remove the male and try again.

[Retic chic]

Thanks for the responses so far. I have kept an eye on them, and so far so good. Some twitching when they are laying together, but no real breeding activity yet.

I will keep a watchful eye on them, since we have had an incidence of cal king cannibalism in the past, and got a JCP from a friend that had cannibalised its mate. So, yes anything is possible with these guys.

Since it took so long to replace the male that died in hibernation, I really dont want him to make an expensive meal for the girl.

[Tim_Cranwill]

I can't really comment on spilotes, though I wish I could but I have 2 cal kings who will bite if I've been holding another snake and they were left together for 3-4 days at a time for breeding this year and have produced two nice clutches with one another. These two would be, in my opinion, my most likely snakes to eat their mate and even with a decent size difference, they were fine. Maybe the breeding instincts are stronger than the feeding ones this time of year.

Who knows, maybe next season I won’t be so lucky.

p.s. If/When you produce some spilotes in the future, I'd love to be on the list for a pair.

[Vanan]

Here's an example of a breeding ALMOST going bad! Had my adult pair of Elaphe carinata shed at the same time. Decide to try a supervised introduction. Both weren't brumated. The moment the male slid into her enclosure, the female uncoiled from her resting position and, in no less than 3 secs (I swear!), had the male's head halfway down the hatch! All I saw was two snakes full stretch and then death coils! The man came out unscathed after a 5 min attempt at freeing him. Just an example of a "ya never know" type situation.

[Simon Sansom]

Definitely do not keep Spilotes together, except during supervised breeding trials.

Cheers!

Simon R. Sansom

[Tim_Cranwill]

Vanan, I had a similar experience with two cal kings last year. The female all of a sudden decided she liked this poor guy and had his head a couple inches down her throat! :0

I got the male out unscathed... she just turned on a dime and took him down! It was nuts!

[Scales Zoo]

Originally posted by Simon Sansom
Definitely do not keep Spilotes together, except during supervised breeding trials.

Cheers!

Simon R. Sansom

I knew you'd know that. I know I read or heard that somewhere, but could not "prove" it to Sheila, by finding it on the net or in a book.

They just kind of seem like canabilistic snakes too, and I'm learning to trust my gut feelings with this reptile thing.

We are going to take them to Cyrpess Hills on the weekend, and see if the elevation and pressure change makes them want to breed like it has seemed to have an effect on other snakes we've done that with. So far, the smaller male seems to rather stay away from the much larger female. They did curl up and do a bit of twitching the one time, so hopefully the Hills trip will push them over the edge.

She ate 8 mice before we introduced them, we thought better safe than sorry and made sure she had a full stomach. She will eat this many mice every 7 days, she is huge, and I hope to see how many eggs these snakes can produce sometime in the future.

Ryan

[Scales Zoo]

Vanan, you had the Stinkers together!

Next time, I'll come over with the video camera and some midwest equipment.

Man, I hope those produce this year. Some funky colubrids coming out of Leader Saskatchewan in the future!

Banging my head, I wish I still had E. Carinata!!!

Ryan

[Stockwell]

I haven't worked with Spilotes, but you need to be very careful keeping any pre-ovulating snakes together.. Females that are preparing to produce eggs, can get crazy and eat things they normally wouldn't.
I came very close to losing a rosy boa, and a spotted python this year... These snakes don't normally eat they're own kind, but in both cases it was pre-gravid females, striking and constricting their intended mates. These snakes also munched into water towls and tongs or anything else moving in their trays.
There is always a risk keeping snakes together, and the risk increases at binging times or where there has been a long period of fasting.
Given Spilotes known reputation for eating almost anything... I wouldn't leave them unsupervised.
Somebody once told me their's would eat hot dogs.

[Simon Sansom]

LOL, Roy!
I wish my female would eat hot dogs - she's the most finicky snake I've ever seen.

Simon R. Sansom

[Simon Sansom]

Oh, and good luck with yours, Ryan. You should post some pics of them one of these days. I'd love to see them.

Cheers!

Simon R. Sansom

[Vanan]

Ryan, I'm not risking anymore introductions like I did with the carinata this year. They'll be cooled and introduced for the next season. From the few European sources I read about carinata, breeding was always superceded brumation and cool temps. Temps similar to those required for Russian Rat brumation.