Parasite transmision

[Steeve B]

Dave I didnt argue what you said, and your right I have very little pepoles skills, aim very much aware of this and try to not show it, but the good news is aim improuving thanks to guys like you.
however I have to admit my english has not improuved much.

[V.hb]

Before I comment, I just want to say iam no expert on monitors, nor parasites but I have some similiar cases to point out..

I think what Steve is trying to say is you must treat the initial problem BEFORE treating the parasites.

A stressed animal that has parasites will only be even further weakend due to its stress while housed with another animal thats further up on the pole of dominance. Worming this animal is more like poisoning it if its not digesting its food well due to the parasites and stress.

By seperating the animals, the weaker of the two will become stronger mentally, and physically as the stress is no longer present. So keeping them seperate for some time the animal becomes strong enough to treat, and it for myself has always been more successful than keeping them together.

Also by seperation you can monitor (no pun intended) the other animals condition to see if he/she needs to be treated as well.

[Steeve B]

This is why I cant help others! there will always be one of these ppl, that will follow me on every forum and say something incorrect . sure they cant give me tangeble arguments, how frostrating it must be.

by the way your rudi was force fed for a month

[skinheaddave]

Steve,

No worries, mate. I'm perfectly content to let this all pass. I'm not exactly finishing school material myself.

Cheers,
Dave

[Steeve B]

Dave I think your posts where very good and informative, the important is that Dom gets what he needs out of it.

nice meeting you

[Dom]

Steve.. I have always respected and enjoyed every post on the forums.. you have always made me think and evaluate every situation to its fullest.. I thank you for that .. I will follow your advise

Dave .. I do not know you but your advise is sound and makes very good sense.. i agree that vet help can be important but I am one to do everything i can to not use any meds if I do not have too..

I have had many problems with meds before and will detour anyway I can from tehm .. but this is just my oppinion

Dom

[Shane Tesser]

Ive had to edit this thread...a couple times...just glad to see its all come out well in the end

[tHeGiNo]

This is why I cant help others! there will always be one of these ppl, that will follow me on every forum and say something incorrect . sure they cant give me tangeble arguments, how frostrating it must be.

Who were you talking to here?

[mbayless]

Parasitism is a war of parasite vrs host; many parasites do not kill their host, as it is not beneficial for them to do so = mutualism. When an animal is not at its prime, the parasites can bring it down health speaking and in a few rare (wild and captive) cases killed them outright (see Young, 1965: ticks killed V. niloticus and V. albigularis 125+ ticks per lizard and literally suffocated them), but those are rare. Internal parasites feed on nutrients digested by host, and pass their eggs through the cloaca to further and future hosts - that is ALL they do....perpetuate their parasitic species via the hosts (and often different trophic levels and species as well)....a healthy Varanus will be able to keep its parasites in check - a sick one cannot as it is fighting health issues simutaneously. Over-medication is a common cause of mortality in Varanus, and several vets I know have said dosages should be reduced 50%-75% current dosages given...like MD's, DVM's are also still testing the waters of medications and dosages to give - usually via guinea pig standards = give high dosages and work your way down to levels kill parasites/infection, providing the host is not already dead from heavy meds....same old story: i.e. 100% way to kill Bubonic Plague in 1601 England = burn the patient (and plague) up (alive and dead) = now: isolate and treat with medications but mortality is still high and kills the fleas, rats and vermin caused it.

As for experience, nothing is better than that for learning, however difficult it can be. And yes, friends can disagree on things as Steve and I do sometimes, but we agree to be friends first, and I value his friendship whether he has/had Varanus or not...and it is mutual.

cheers,
markb

[Campbellvenomou]

guys want a mind boggling view at parasite - host relationships, read Parasite Rex.........

Hey Mark, whats up man? How are ya feeling?

[SHvar]

Ive buried too many monitors myself getting a vet to treat an animal that has a positive reading but has no reason to be treated. A parasite that harms its host or kills it is an unsucessful parasite, they and the host live symbiotically.
I got a 4.5 ft bosc and his female cage mate (30 inches) treated (for preventative medicine) after raising them both for 5 years, the male died from a dehydrated failed liver because improper husbandry, the female died the same within a few months or so, same thing, the Cue De Gras was the the treatment, the cause was my husbandry.
I had 3 subadult imported BTs raised from much smaller animals, I made a mistake with one that was skinny and covered in ticks at first by getting him dewormed as soon a his weight was up to 11lbs at 4.5 ft, they worms got much worse and his health took a nose dive rapidly, he died, cause wasnt healthy enough to be treated and improper husbandry. I had a female BT was 4.5 ft and 12lbs in beautiful shape the vet on a checkup convinced me to treat her preventively, I listened to him as she was in much better health than some of the others, a week or less later she went down hill and kept going that way though many trips to the vet to try and save her over a few weeks, the worms multiplied like mad to overcome the poison, she dehydrated from the medication and improper husbandry, she refured to eat to gain back what she needed and only got worse she was put down to stop her suffering.
I never got an animal treated afterwards for internal parasites, and theyve all lived, my husbandry is not perfect, its a whole lot better than it was then, I dont trust the stuff because its a medication to treat a symptom, not to treat a problem, fix the root of the problem and the symptoms go away on their own.

[skinheaddave]

I see what people are getting at, but you're taking it one step too far and butchering the terminology at the same time.

mutualism = an interaction wherein both parties benefit

symbiosys = a mutualistic relationship, often obligate rather than faculative

Neither of these reflect parasitism very well. Parasitism, by definition, involves benefit to one party (the parasite) and harm to the other (the host). In some cases, the harm can be so minimal that you could almost consider the relationship commensalism:

commenasalism = an interaction wherein one party benefits and one party experiences no effect.

This is what I think people are trying to get at. That being said, harm is not measured by death alone. You can have a bloody big tapeworm in your own gut and still live. I wonder if you would be so keen to waive off medical treatment for yourself, though, under the argument that as long as you ate plenty of food, there was no real harm being done.

Of course that's not a really good comparison, since humans have a relatively pathetic ability to heal ourselves. I am sure a monitor in proper conditions will not only be fine with a parasite load that would kill us but will even heal itself. This will work to a degree, but there are definitely parasites out there that are a problem and can be treated with vetrenarian care. I guess the question there is do you just leave ticks on your monitor or do you remove them? After all, they won't kill the monitor and there is a chance they'll fall off on their own. Most of us probably are comfortable dealing with external parasites, though.

Cheers,
Dave

I'm with you Dave, parasites kill and symbiots don't. I will say that often parasites in small numbers don't kill or at least take a very long time to do so but cause harm either way.

[SHvar]

A sucessful parasite does not kill or harm its host when the host is healthy it suffers nothing from the parasite. The safest dewormer (for certain bugs) is Panacur but it is still a poison, can you with your limited experience honestly tell me that you know when your animal is feeling good enough and healthy enough to treat it safely? I know with over 12 years raising monitors its a gamble, and it may only remove some of them, because the reading 6 months from now may be positive and it may be negative. The only reason I would treat a reptile for internal parasites is if the species (specific) is detrimental to the health of your animal, you have to remember the stuff is poison, it will dehydrate your animals organs, the animal, make it sick, and make it go off of food for some time (depends how bad the infestation is). The choice is up to the owner, but Ive gambled when my husbandry wasnt as good or near as good as it is today and the monitors lost, they lost worse than I did. I never had a sick or dieing WC monitor after I stopped deworming period, they did great afterwards. As for ticks I always removed them one at a time with tweezers, mites I used Black Knight.
The best way to avoid these problems as always stated before, save your money and save the wild animals, buy a CBB animal, there is a whole world of difference. Good luck.

[skinheaddave]

Originally posted by SHvar
A sucessful parasite does not kill or harm its host when the host is healthy it suffers nothing from the parasite.

So if a host in good health acquires a parasite and then falls into ill health because its nutrients are being diverted, does this support your theory that parasites cause no harm, since it was only the ill monitor that suffered the effects?

If all you want me to do is kowtow to your monitor experience then fine, you have way more experience than me. Happy? If you want to actualy stand behind your gross misunderstanding of parasitism then I suggest you do a little reading first. I may not have years of experience with them, but there are people out there who have and who have written articles and books and whatnot. If you can do a serious literature review and then come back and tell me again that your above statement is true, we will have something serious to discuss.

Cheers,
Dave