Pics of brb setups wanted :)

[Jeff_Favelle]

I couldn't agree more. I also think that these forums work 10x better when opinions are expressed as such, and facts are expressed as such. Jeff, you and I have pretty much the same communication style, and that's one of the reasons why I love debating with you.

Yeah, fun as a root canal. LOL! J/K

Gotta go to work, but I'm sure I think of more ways to tell people good husbandry so that, in turn, will make them not listen and go kill their snakes. Because it is totally my sole duty inform people how aquariums and screen tops and overhead lights can work, especially when I believe they can't. How I am going to acomplish this, I don't know.............



Play nice while I'm gone!

[Jeff_Favelle]

One thing that can be agreed upon here (I hope) is that with new keepers, the more variables in the equation, the more room for errors and the more errors, the more mistreated (or even dead) snakes. I know we all want every snake kept healthy and properly. When I first posted on this thread my concerns were less with WYZ’s set up and more with others trying to half-a$$ copy it. That set up can work it you’re willing and able to put in the extra effort but I bet most new keepers aren’t. I would always recommend simple and effective set ups to new keepers over complex and labor intensive. Period. No matter what “can” work. Tell them what WILL.

EXACTLY! And this is the precise reason that I won't tell people how they can make a mickey-mouse aquarium with lights work. The cost of a Rubbermaid and heat pad is just too low to warrant me telling them that they can jimmy such a setup to actually work. Their room for error is so low, especially with a snake like a Rainbow. So I don't. And I don't care if people think I should. In reality, I should do what I think I should do. And everyone else should do what they think they should do. Totally.

[Double J]

Hello everybody.. I have been following this discussion since the beginning, and though I am not a boa keeper ( I keep mostly frogs...around 16 species, plus my geckos) I thought I'd chime in wth my humidity experience. To start, Dendrobatid frogs ( dart frogs ) need a MINIMUM of 80 % humidity.. they are extremely prone to dessication. So much so that if they are outside of their vivarium (here in southern ontario anyway) they will essentially mummify in little more than a few hours. I know this from experience as I had a few mantellas escape.. and I found them a few hours later ( I will tell the story if you like) I mist my tanks once daily... and the humidity in my vivariums stay at least 85%..though generally in the high 90s. Now.. when it comes to the lids of my tanks... I use screen lids because these are the only things that are frogproof and fruit fly proof. However... the screening is either completley covered with either plexi or a piece of 1 mil poly (like a thick cling wrap). This keeps the humidity more than adeqaute with a single daily misting ( I should note that I mist with a pressurized sprayer rather than a spray bottle.. so the misting is fairly vigourous and lasts roughly 80 seconds on each viv) On top of that.. my substrates are usually based on coco-husk fiber with leaf litter, spphagnum, peat moss, and a few other things mixed in. The vivaria are loaded with an assortment of live plants as well ( these naturalistic vivaria are a bug part of why I keep and breed darts becasue they meet the needs of the frogs better than anything else, and look amazing). The substrate holds moisture nicely without being wet and swampy. I should also ad that there is really no standing water in most of my tanks. If there is.. it is a very small water feature. As for heating... I don't do any supplemental heating... the vivaria stay around 77 which is ideal.. and drop a few degrees at night. I do heat my frogroom.. that is about it.. but is not much warmer than the rest of the house. Now this is where lighting comes in... I use either standard style fluorescents or compact fluorescents. Their main purpose is for the plants... but they truly make the vivs viewable. So you may be asking.. How does this translate to the rainbow boas???? Well.. humidity can be maintained with a screen top so long as it is almost totally covered. Also.. if you are using lighting on your boas because you want to see them better.. get rid of that incandescent garbage.. get yourself some heat tape.. and some fluorescent fixtures. They work wonders for viewing animals and will not mess with the temperature too much. I am aware that much of what I said may not apply to snake keeping ( live plants would be pretty much a write off in a snake tank.. except for maybe some snakes of the genus Corallus or maybe some eyelash vipers...) But my point was that dart frog keepers use covered screen tops with our tanks on animals that are far more prone to dessication and dehydration than any snake.
So... take from this post what you wish. Since I am not a snake keeper.. I would bet what I have said may already have been discussed in the past. But I will say that if you want an animal which you can house in a naturalistic vivarium with live plants (planted directly in the substrate for a variety of reasons.. none of this potted business) and have a good looking heavily planted display tank.. than a snake is not an ideal candidate. IF you want your own little piece of the rainforest.. get some dart frogs for crying out loud. It is incredibly easy to make a tank that
a) fits the needs of the frogs more than adequately
b) looks fabulous
Anyway.. I'll let the discussion continue.. take my post as you wish... and if it is something that should be ignored.. so be it.. I am not a boa keeper
Ciao

[Derrick]

First off Double J you should post some of your enclosure pic I'm sure they would be of help to the original question.

secondly

Originally posted by Invictus
All you've proven is that 60 watt bulbs are bad. Not that ALL bulbs are bad. Even my BCIs only get 40 watt bulbs for their hot spots, because that's all you need to create a nice 90 degree hot spot. That snake you replaced died for one reason and one reason only; because instead of telling people how to make their environment work for their animal, you just tell them their way sucks. If you focused half as much energy into simply telling people "Hey, if you absolutely must use a lamp, which I do not recommend, make sure you don't go over 25 or 40 watts, and check your temps regularly... or you could try this way, which doesn't require as much effort....", instead of just telling people their husbandry techniques "Suck", maybe less rainbows would be getting killed from people who will just do their own thing anyway. This is my point, and this is why I debate so strongly with you on this subject. Because instead of educating people about how to make their setup work, you just knock them down, then they do their own thing without the proper education, and they kill the snake. Seems to me that maybe you should be looking at your education skills before you call me for a 15 yard penalty.

I have to take excption to this. As a customers of Jeffs he has answer any question I've asked. He'll you what the snake requires and how he provides those conditions for it. If as a customer you decide to try something else its not Jeff's responsabilty to do the research on how to make it work its the snakes owner. I doubt that "That snake you replaced died for one reason and one reason only; because instead of telling people how to make their environment work for their animal, you just tell them their way sucks." That snake died because the owner didnt properly test his setup and do the necessary research to maintain a brb. The fact the Jeff replaced it for free is surprising, I would have a hard time justifying it if I was in his shoes. Thats money out of his pocket for someone elses stupidity. I guess in the long run it probably pays off in word of mouth advertising and repeat business

[Invictus]

Again, I have never questioned that Jeff's way of doing things does work. I don't question that he is a great business person. I don't question that his way leaves very little room for error. But it's not the ONLY way, and if someone IS successfully using overhead lights for their BRBs, no one has a right to tell them they are practicing bad husbandry. That was the point I was getting at. Yes, things got heated, and yes, I made some comments that came out way more harsh than I intended them. But go through being told that your way sucks, despite the fact that you've proven it to work time and time again, and see how well you can keep your temper in check. Nonetheless, I've made my apologies already. Time to move along.

[Jeff_Favelle]

But it's not the ONLY way, and if someone IS successfully using overhead lights for their BRBs, no one has a right to tell them they are practicing bad husbandry.

I totally agree Ken. And trust me, if someone posts something like that, I'm the FIRST guy to walk downstairs, sit on the floor of my reptile room, and think for a couple of hours if I should switch everything around. I am not stuck in my ways. My husbandry evolves every frickin' DAY! Check this out: I am using FOUR DIFFERENT substrates in my Jungle cages. Why? I bred every single pair last year and will do the same this year. Why even bother? Because I'm a fanatic when it comes to husbandry. I have 4 atlases and maps of S. America and Australia posted up in my room. Its crazy man.

And of course lights can work. I've done it. But its not my job to suggest that it can work. Its my job (as I see it) to provide people with the best possible cage that will allow their BRB experience to be positive. THAT'S IT! My job ends there. And I feel I do that MORE than enough. More than any other breeder I know, save for Don Patterson. But he never posts, so he has the time, LOL!!

[Jeff_Favelle]

Also, a quick question: Why is it my job to tell everyone how to make spot lights and screen tops and aquariums work with Rainbows, when I full believe that they can't and don't? Wouldn't it make more sense for the people that actually USE these methods to speak up and help the people? How can you chastize me after all I do education-wise, when there are people supposedly doing it successfully with lights and aquariums just sitting idely by twidling their thumbs, not posting because they don't want to ruin their precious credibility? How is that cool? I mean, isn't it all about the animals? How can people be so greedy as to watch people turn their animals into "meat sticks" because they don't have the info, just to save their "credibility"?

I think that is way more of a travesty than me not telling people how to do it, when I fully believe that it shouldn't be done.

Nes pas?

Almost done. Story coming up......

[Jeff_Favelle]

Flash back, late 90's. I have all my Rainbows in 4x2x2's, with huge vent holes on the cool side, and heat them with 60W incandescents on the other side. Everything seems to be ok, but I have to spray at LEAST 2-3 times a day and condensation on the glass is a PIPE dream. Even when I put a HUGE water dish under the light, I'm still spraying in the morning, after work, and before I go to bed. Not exactly fun reptile-keeping in my book. And I live in Victoria! And this is without a screen top!

But still they breed. Success isn't very good though. Litters of like 12 slugs and 5 babies or 10 babies, 8 still born (looking at my records). Lame. I wasn't satisfied. And I shouldn't have been.

So the following year, out came the lights, in went head pads, and the cages stayed 4x2x2. I only had to mist every other day and success came soon. Litters of 19 and 21 that very year! Awesome I thought.

Flash forward to 2001. I scrapped all those old cages (sold them to a breeder for his monitors) and made new ones with small vents, and only 4x2x1. Misting was basically a thing of the past. One good soak and that was it until cage cleaning time! Here's an example of fool-proof husbandry. Late summer of 2001 I went to Cuba for a month. I had two VERY gravid Rainbows when I left. I asked nobody to check on them and I had no qualms about leaving them. 4 and 1/2 weeks go by, and I make it back home safe and sound. Cruise down to the reptile room and sure enough, the two gravid Rainbows are still their, lying in their gravid poses. I don't even mist the cage. I change the water (as one shed and pooped) in one cage and then go back upstairs. 2 days later, one has 18 babies. 3 days afte that, the other had 16 babies (she was 18 months old). No slugs, no still born.

THAT is what I call low-maintenance. And these are wood cages with sliding glass fronts. PERFECT cages for creating a display tank. There is NO excuse to use anything else (in my opinion), so I cannot suggest anything else. Sorry.

Excellent debate. I feel it has come to a close though. It was fun. I hope more than anything, even more than trying to prove myself right (or at least validated) that people, particularily newbies, have at least learned something about Rainbows, and maybe snake-keeping in general.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Amen... difficult <i>can</i> work, but simple DOES.

Thanks gents! It was more than fun and very educational.