Sand Substrate!

[eyespy]

My friend David the bowel resection specialist says sand is responsible for sending his children to college and buying his beach house.

It's one of the biggest old wives' tales in herping that "proper supplementing" will prevent sand-eating. True cases of pica where animals eat sand to right a nutritional deficiency are very rare. Most animals become impacted from normal daily tongue-flicking and/or eating and have totally normal serum levels of minerals and electrolytes.

I don't work in the vet clinic anymore but am still offered between 5 and 20 impacted animals every week for my rescue. Sand impactions happen frequently and most people who say they never had a problem with sand are totally shocked when we do an epigastric lavage and they see how much stuff has built up in the digestive tract of an animal they think is perfectly fine.

I have not yet seen an animal kept on sand that didn't have an unacceptable amount in its system and most animals kept on sand live a significantly shortened life because all the sand in their guts interferes with proper food absorption, so they basically starve to death.

[KelliH]

Hmm okay... I have been keeping and breeding leopard geckos for more than 10 years now and I would say that for more than half of that time I kept my breeding adults on washed childrens 's playsand and I never once had an impaction problem. And I have kept hundreds of leopard geckos! My husband has been a zookeeper in the herp at our city zoo for over 15 years and they use sand in tons of the exibits there. What about some of the other big US breeders such as Albey, Rich Z @Serpenco, Golden Gecko etc. etc. I believe all of them use sand as a substrate with no problems. I mean do you think we would use it if it were bad for our geckos?! I keep knobtail geckos and let me tell you, they require a sand substrate in captivity! You put one of them on paper towel, newspaper or slate? they are not going to survive longterm. ANyway, I have my opinion about sand, other opinions differ, that's what I love about these forums, we can all express our opinions! I think people should take in information from many sources such as books, other keepers, zoos, websites like this and then decide after a trial and error period, what works best for them and their herps.

[Siretsap]

I kept all my leopard geckos on sand for about 1 year. 2 of them started having impaction problems while the others were perfectly healthy. Now, they are on news paper since it's the only thing they have more trouble eating. I tried coconut mulch but they stil ate some, tried vermiculite as a laying substrat and the females ate some, tried sphagnum mos.... same thing.
Earth is the only thing I now use for breeding substrat since they don't seem to like the texture so they lay the eggs and run out of there.

[eyespy]

It's those big US breeders who use sand that keep Penn's bowel surgery specialty practice in business! Almost 85% of all the surgeries we've done are sand impaction cases.

[Zoe]

Okay, that all makes sense. But there'd be very little sand in this... just between the cracks of the rocks. Still a bad idea?

As for all those "why bother improving if its working already" comments, well it isn't working. Obviously it isnt because there are many impaction cases, and even if they are unlikely (which i dont believe they are) i dont want to even risk hurting my leos at all. I don't think there is much wrong with trying to find the best way, if I did everything caresheets told me to do, I'd be keeping my pythons in a tank on cedar bedding with a hot rock for heat and 90% humidity. Just because its been proven that the animals can survive in such conditions, why is it wrong to try and find the best method, Jeff and Paul?

Zoe

[KelliH]

Eyespy-

So you are saying that the big leopard gecko breeders are having all of these impaction problems in their leopard geckos and bringing their animals to "Penn" to have surgery done? Please, we spend lots and lots of money, time and energy on our leopard geckos, not to mention the love we have for the animals we keep and reproduce, why would we use a substrate that causes them to become impacted and die or have to have expensive surgery? Makes no sense.

[eyespy]

Chronic impactions take an average of 3 years to be detected, they aren't as easy to see as an acute blockage. So most breeders are never aware their animals have ongoing problems and it's very tough to convince them to switch to a safer substrate. We've been working on this issue since 1987 and it's very slow getting folks to change their ways but little by little we're making progress.

We do epigastric lavage on every animal brought in for evaluation and owners seeing dozens of grams of sand flushed out is the way we convert most folks. But most breeders refuse to believe in chronic impactions because it's very rare for them to keep animals long enough for problems to show up, and so the owners get blamed for what happens down the road. Most leopard geckos are 6 to 8 years old before chronic sand impaction kills them. Basically sand has cut their lifespan down to 1/3 of what they should have achieved.

[KelliH]

Eyespy-

Thanks for the info, that is very interesting. I personally have not used sand for several years now. Because of the amount of animals I have paper towel is much easier for me to keep claen, plus the amount of dust in the air when using sand was pretty significant. You are correct when you say that most breeders do not keep animals long term, mostly because of the ever changing leopard gecko market and the sad fact that what's hot and highly coveted one year may not be a year or two later.

I appreciate you explaining it to me in a calm, collected manner and I am definitely going to rethink my position on the "sand debate". Thanks Again-
Kelli Hammack
Herpetological Institute for Scientific Study

[Rich]

Hello,
I lost my first gecko due to an impaction. It was a rather bizarre senario. I started using playground sand because I was informed that it was a good substrate.A few months later, I began looking info up online (to make sure that I was doing everything correctly)and found that it wasn't as safe as I had previously been told.
I immediatley switched to repti carpet. 11 months after I had made the change, my gecko suddenly died over night. To say the least, I was a bit devastated.
I brought the leo to my cousin who performed a neocropsy and was informed that it was a sand impaction that had caused the leo's death. I was shocked! This was 11 months AFTER I had removed the leo from the sand.
I have stopped using sand all together and haven't lost a gecko in over 10 years now. I think that says alot for the sand issue!

[Wuntu Menny]

Sand , sand , sand... Its all I ever use. Sand with certain properties, mind you, but still sand.

Yes, they ingest it, I see it all the time in their droppings. It passes right through them. I carefully chose a type of sand that is washed and graded, without irregular stones and pebbles and it does not clump with moisture.

I started using it years ago before the whole sand debate began to rage. I've never had a problem, so I won't change my setup. I've seen and heard enough horror stories involving paper towel, carpet, and assorted commercial substrates that I see no benefit to any of them over sand.

WM

[choriona]

wuntu- where do you get your sand?

[Zoe]

Okay I found some sand today... it is very fine, no dust, and doesnt clump when wet. I put it in the tank and put a whole bunch of rocks / slate rocks on top, as well as the plants/cacti, food and water dishes... I think they will be okay! But if I notice amounts of sand in the feces I will take out all that bloody sand

[Wuntu Menny]

Choriona, I use Target brand playsand from Home Despot. Sometimes I'll combine it with Burnco product, but that stuff has to be screened to remove the stones and larger material.

I discovered it's properties when I tried it as nesting medium for chameleons. It doesn't work worth a s**t because it won't hold water. The tunnels collapse and the water all drains to the bottom of the bucket.

I actually use five different kinds of sand for different applications. Not all sand is created equal.

WM

[choriona]

yeah, thats what my leos are on too (the target), but there are some larger bits in the sand. I was using it in my trunk for the winter. lol. maybe some got mixed?!

[Wuntu Menny]

Larger bits!? Where?

Are you using the stuff in the paper or plastic bag? I'm referring to the one in plastic and I've never found any irregular contents.