Bearded Pygmy Chameleon - Page 2

Charm_Paradise · 07-26-03, 07:26 PM

Trace-

There has been allot of death this past month in the female R. brevicaudatus, Trace you are not alone. Allot of people on KS forum that keep them or started to keep them have lost females even a CB from the Kammers. I have not had any problems with my Ulu's (knock on wood), but there was someone who's female Ulu died with 16 eggs inside. Any thoughts on what is going on?

meow_mix450 · 07-26-03, 07:45 PM

O wow did any of those 16 eggs make it???

Trace · 07-26-03, 08:04 PM

Again, I'm behind on this thread as well, so I will answer all of the questions at once!

Brock: Yes, we should start a PPC! That would be a most interesting project to be involved in. Contact me! Good luck with finding some at the Red Deer show, I'm sure there will be a few. You are first on the list on people to contact when my babies get a little bigger and I feel they are old enough to be sold. I do not want to let them go at too young of age as they are extremely fragile at the moment. As for prices of my babies... I'm not sure yet... I paid about $50.00 each for the adults, so I'm sure the babies will be in that ballpark range. I can not comment on the Ambilobe issue as of yet, but I will have my pair by the end of the year.

Meow: The only good book I have on pygmy species is: Chameleons: Natures Hidden Jewels by Petr Necas. ISBN: 1-57524-137-4. I paid about $80.00CAN for the book and it is my chameleon bible. Well worth the expensive price tag IMHO.

John & Brock: Well I just lost the last of my 5 females about 10 minutes ago! GRRRR

All of my females from the original group have died on me within the last week or so. I wonder if there is some sort of virus or something going on with the WC brevs this year? Odd. I do not read the KS forums but I may have to look into the threads there just to see what's going on. I have done necropsies on a few of them and really haven't discovered anything wrong internally, and I will cut open this last female and look inside too. I'll let everyone know if I see anything weird.

Cheers!

Trace

Brock · 07-27-03, 03:55 AM

Trace, how much were you feeding them, and what were you supplementing them with? I personally think these deaths are caused by over feeding or a lack of or overdose of supplements, or simply giving them supplements they don't need. Like a creature is dependant on the chemical makeup of a certain food source while that same chemical makeup is lethal to another creature.
Or were there any tiny tiny white bugs crawling around? Take a very very close look at your enclosure to see if there are any white things crawling around, some of the people on KS mentioned they saw white things crawling around, they said they were harmless but it could be some sort of parasite.
There's going to be quite a bit of research going on with these guys in the near future, since the chameleon community is clueless as to why their females are dying abruptly (usually after laying eggs). If we don't find a cause, people will be put off by the fact that females have a high death rate in captivity and no one will want to buy them.
The PPC wouldn't take that long, since it is to my understanding they lay clutches every 2 months after reaching sexual maturity. The problem is getting to the bottom of why the females are dying.

What all did you feed them? Someone brought up that they eat termites in the wild, and that some enzyme helps with digestion. Being on the forest floor, I'm sure they have developed some kind of dependancy on a certain insect since there are so very many in the leaf litter of the jungles. Just like the Molluch horridus from Australia (thorny devil), they ONLY eat ants, or the various arrow frogs who are only poisonous if they eat a certain ant that eats a certan toxic plant.
I'm really anxious to get to the bottom of the mystery of the death of the female pygmies. Having lost 5, I suggest you go to KS and type up your experiences and husbandry techniques. I know KS isn't a very friendly place sometimes and understand why you may not go there, but this is for the greater good. It's very strange that you lost them all in such a short ammount of time, very very very strange. Of course they were WC and it was most likely a parasite, but it's strange that it took as long as it did and they were all basically in synch with each other.

Could also be the summer weather.....Craig Goldie lost a few of his montane species last summer when there was a heat wave here in BC. It might be wise to 'winterize' them over the summer so they aren't exposed to any tempurature fluxuations. I really am clueless as to what a cause could be. This is so frustrating.

If I were to get one from you it would probably have to be shipped via airplane, and I really don't have a good feeling sending a terrestrial chameleon into high elevation for any ammount of time, especially the pygmies which are fragile to that kind of thing. I wonder if you could send it with someone to the Red Deer show if you know anyone going. I'll e-mail you tomorrow when I'm not so tired (2:20am). *YAWN* All this damn pygmy talk has my brain working so that I can't sleep.

-Brock

Trace · 07-27-03, 08:00 AM

Hey Brock!

Yeah, I'm pretty ticked right now! This whole thing has gotten me quite stumped. I was having the best luck with these guys for the past few months and losing the 5 females in such a short time is EXTREMELY puzzling. All of my females have died AFTER laying their eggs so it wasn't a dystocia issue here. I did do a necropsy on the female last night and didn't really see anything spectacular, much like the necropsies on the other females I had. I did notice that this one did have a slightly enlarged liver and I think I will send the liver off for Histopathology just to rule out any problems there. No parasites that I could see, but any chameleons I get (WC or CB) are dewormed immediately upon arrival here.

I have gone through and read most of the discussions on KS about it now, but I do find that forum a little ummmm hard to read sometimes. (Holy, politically correct statement there Batman!) After I posted here last night, I noticed the subject has been started on some the chameleon email lists that I belong to so I'll definately get involved on those threads and tell my experiences about it. I still may join KS today as well, although it will almost pain me to do so, but as you say, it's for the greater good, and the more information chameleon owners have, particularly about some of these new(ish) species to the pet trade will be beneficial to all of us in the long run.

As for the food... I was primarily giving them 1/4" crickets, as this is the easiest bugs for me to get on a regular basis, but I did use small silkworms and fruit flies as well, so their diet is varied. I would supplement once a week alternatively with calcium and reptivite. I noticed you addressed me and the issue of overfeeding on the KS forums, and I don't want to give you the impression that I would feed my guys a 1000 crix a week, but I would buy that many bugs on a weekly basis as I find most of them come in dead anyways and I also can't be bothered to keep them alive. I pay less for a box of crickets then I would pay somebody (or myself) to keep them alive. That being said, I am probably guilty of overfeeding around here anyways. None of my chameleons are overweight by any stretch, but they certainly do not want for bugs! Interesting thoughts on your part though for their need for certain insects for proper health. This would not surprise me if they did require only grubs or termites or the like. I guess through further captive husbandry will we find out these details. Just because I've had some set-backs with this species, will not give up on them though. I do find them fascinating to work with. They are sssooo different than the arboreal species that I also work with.

Lastly, I did consider where you lived when I typed my answer about selling my babies to you and the long ship times to the west coast from Ontario is troublesome to me as well. Not that I don't want to sell to you, but I'm hoping that you will find some closer to you, just to save the stress of shipping on these little guys. You have shown an interest in them though and I am happy to keep you on the top of my list if you are unsuccessful in your bid to find some out west. We can certainly discuss details at a later date. All I'm going to say at this point... I'm MORE than determined to make sure these babies I have now and the eggs I'm incubating make it!

I look forward to an email from you.

Cheers!

Trace

Trace · 07-27-03, 10:36 AM

Hey! Me again!

I got to thinking, and yes it hurt and I've come up with a few thoughts.

First of I'll explain what I do for the folks that don't know me that well before I get into the point of this post. As my signature says, I'm addicted to chameleons and quite honestly I'm getting a little bored of the Veileds and Panthers that are so prevalent in the pet hobby these days. No offense to any of those owners as I have more than a few of each of those species, and probably always will. Being in Canada, I'm always envious of our American friends who have access to some of the weirder species of chameleons, both WC and more importantly CB animals. At this point, for me to be able to work with the species that I want to, I'm sort of stuck with getting the WC imports, although I always prefer a CB animal any day. Please don't argue with me about the ethical ramifications of WC animals, I know them, this is not the point of this post. Being that Canada is a smaller market for chameleons, and breeders of the weirder species are few and far between, WC animals is what I have to do most times. I'm hoping that within the next year or two I will have the financial and political (I can't think of the proper word, sorry) means to be able to import some CB animals from the US. Maybe I have a romantised view of what I do, but I would really like to see more of the weirder species of chameleons available in Canada and I want to see them being CB animals, and if I have to start with some WC animals to get the program started, I will.

Now to the point of this post. I have acquired a number of WC chameleons from Tanzania within the last few months. (R. brevicaudatus, R. temporalis and B. tavetanum to name a few) None of these chameleons have done well in my care. I started with 15 animals and now I am down to 1! I lost the last B. tavetanum this morning! He was fine... eating well, poops normal, he was a regular healthy chameleon yesterday. All my WC animals are quarantined here, dewormed, vet checked etc etc. My husbandry is good, I've been working with reptiles for longer than some of you guys have been alive, so I don't think there are any issues with that. So is it a coincidence that none of the Tanzania animals have done well for me? It most likely is, and I've just had more than my share of bad luck recently, or is there something going on in Tanzania that we don't know about? Any thoughts?

Cheers!

Trace

meow_mix450 · 07-27-03, 12:17 PM

Well i have a thought or u can say a guess....pigmy's chameleon only come from tanzania well thats wut i have heard...i havnt heard that they come from any other country so mayb they dont do so well in other country's cause of the weather...and im guessing that that there isnt much in canada cause most of them die in a month or 2 just a guess...it would be great if other people can tell us how there reptile from tanzania are doing that would be great so then we might have a clue to wut is going on here or in tanzania and im gonna check how there weather is like in tanzania and post you people wut i have found cause i think its the weather problem but thats my guess any of ur guess are as good

meow_mix450 · 07-27-03, 12:48 PM

o i just forgot u ask one question is CB do better in canada??? or is WC better?

Trace · 07-27-03, 12:57 PM

Meow, for your sake, as you have not owned a chameleon yet, look for a captive born (CB) or captive bred and born (CBB) animal. Generally they are more acclimated to life in captivity and a little easier to deal with. Don't get yourself into the headaches of wild caught (WC) animals like I am doing until you have a bit more experience. No offense meant by that last statement please! They are difficult to handle and require too much money and time to get them healthy and thriving in a captive environment.

Hope this helps.

Trace

meow_mix450 · 07-27-03, 01:06 PM

None taken ya i understand im gonna start with a CB before i think about WC

Brock · 07-27-03, 05:26 PM

15 animals all dead? Now that is something very odd, there's usually a few who pull through. There could be something going on in Tanzania, a reptile plague or something, or it could be like mad cow disease (my grandma said that mad cow disease has an incubation time inside the host of a certain [cant remember] ammount of time), and it is like a time bomb inside of them waiting to take over and kill them.
So they WERE gravid before they died, that's interesting, I wasn't sure before. Because all the people's whose died on the KS forums died after laying eggs as well. That is most interesting. Even a guy who had his female Rh. brevi for a year with no male died, as he was cleaning out the cage he found a tiny baby on one of the plants. This indicates they can store sperm for very very long ammounts of time as well, but it also adds to the problem that they die after laying eggs. Like some salmon do (I should know, I had to go to the salmon run all the time with school, it was interesting the first time, but after that you just got sick of the damn smell).
You probably read my post about longevity not being a selected trait in the pygmies, but reproduction definately being one. The more I read about how the females died after egg laying, the more I'm starting to believe that theory. Reproduce, die; and it's just that simple. Perhaps they need a certain ammount of food, or a certain change in environment after they lay eggs to recover from it, or it's just simply their life mission to lay some eggs so the species can survive. I wonder if it's a cosmic energy causing worldwide death of Rh. brevi females, where's Superman when you need him...

I'm also extremely envious, sometimes causing insanity, of our American neighbours and their vast selection of chameleons. Bastards...

But, I would also like to see a wider selection of the more strange chameleons in Canada as well. Hopefully in the next 5 years or so I can help you with the importing of CB animals from the US, Canada has such a depressing selection of quality animals. I'm glad to see you are taking the initiative and being a pioneer to aid in the conservation by captive propagation (sorry whoever's signature that is) trend that I hope to see broadened over the next decade.

-Brock

Brock · 07-27-03, 06:12 PM

Trace I was going to e-mail you, but I guess this will benefit the whole group.

Alanvines from KS posted that some scientists in Europe just discovered a new form of an old coccidia parasite (see quote below). They tested the stools of 10 Rh. temporalis, endemic to Tanzania (Usambra). He said it needs more research, but I was just talking to Beth Wallbank about coccidia, and I see her as one of the leading authorities on herp advice since she keeps and breeds over 300 herps. This is what she had to say.

I told her the situation of all the female pygmy chameleons dying after laying eggs, and she said that coccidia strikes when the immune system is down. She then stated that egg laying is very hard on the immune system and causes it to temporarily 'crash', this would be good reason as to why the females are dying after egg laying, while the healthy males are still around. As far as I know, there have been no stool checks for coccidia from any of the people who have had their pygmies die. Beth also said that coccidia is an extremely contageous parasite and will spread to any chameleon you come in contact with after touching an infected animal. Then she added that it was contageous to humans. She said it will strike when your immune system is down, i.e. a bad cut, the flu, or a heavy period. She said that coccidia is definately transferred to eggs, and the babies have a high chance of dying after hatching (but Trace's seem to be doing fine). Beth said there was treatment, fenbenezole, but harsh, panacur, and small amounts of ivumectin, ( but has been know to kill herps). Of course, any treatment on such a tiny creature could ultimately be lethal and costly.

So, until there is further research on the deaths of the captive Rh. spp in North America, or until other chams get sick and the coccidia strikes, or until some keepers get sick and the coccidia strikes, we won't know for sure that this is a nation wide case of coccidia.
The fact that Beth mentioned that the female's immune system is deprived during and after egg laying, and that the males are fine (obviously because their immune systems must be in check), leads me to believe that coccidia is indeed the cause. And Trace, your other WC animals could have had their immune systems shocked while you were treating them for worms and had them on special care in quarintine, triggering the coccidia to take affect. I would have a few or all of your chameleons, as well as yourself, checked medically for any trace of coccidia, and if you have any stools that are less than 48 hours old, take them to a vet immediately to get them checked for coccidia.

Beth said she hears you are immaculate with your hygene, and she is optimistic for you.

Quote:

Posted by: alanvines at Sun Jul 27 13:54:25 2003 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Modry et al from the department of Parasitology, University of Veterinary and Pharmaceutical Sciences, Brno, Czech Republic have discovered a new Coccidian parasite from pygmy chameleons. In their study, the investigators searched the stools of 10 pygmy chameleons, Rampholeon temporalis, endemic to the Usambara Mountains region in northeastern Tanzania, for coccidian parasites.

The investigators have named the new species as Eimeria hajeki. They describe the sporulated oocysts of Eimeria hajeki n. sp. to be oval with a shape index (length/width) of 1.3 (1.2-1.4) and a 2-microm-thick rough, bilayered wall. The investigators have further reported the micropyle and polar granule to be absent in E.hajeki.

End Quote.

- A Very Concerned Brock

Trace · 07-27-03, 07:04 PM

GGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!

I was typing up a rather nice reply to your first post when I got notification of another reply to this thread! Needless to say. I'm in shock now!

Yes, my hygiene and quarantine practices are immaculate, but sometimes mistakes can happen... so it looks like I'll be spending my next few days collecting poops from ALL of my chameleons here and running back and forth from my vet getting specific tests run. As much as this new information is disappointing and scary, this is something I must do, as I do not need an outbreak of coccidia here. It would certainly explain the troubles I've had with the WC imports in the last few months. I am also fortunate that I still have the WC male R. brevicaudatus and I'm going to be looking for his poop first. Of course I have spent the day (as I do everyday) cleaning all of my chameleon enclosures and I have to wait until tomorrow for some fresh poops from all my woggley-eyed friends. It's funny you bring this up... I tend to deworm my collection twice a year whether they need it or not, and I was considering starting the treatments this week so this is more impetus to do that.

Thank for the heads up Brock! Thanks as well for the support of my crazy idea of breeding the weird species here. If everything goes well, I'm hoping that things will be set-up financially for me to have it started within 2 years, but if you want to help at some point in the future, I would be more than agreeable to that.

Cheers!

Trace

Brock · 07-27-03, 08:40 PM

Ahahaha sorry, but I read this forum before I read the KS forum, so I had to share the news immediately after.

Yeah this coccidia issue, if it is indeed the case, will need a lot of work to overcome. Especially with the way some exporters ship the chameleons all in one crate and the contagiousness of the parasite.

I'd be more than happy to help with the chameleon breeding, although I think I should finish school first and get a job. I'm only 17 remember. Hopefully I will have a nice breeding colony of lots of different things and I will have equal or greater status than the Kammers. HA! Take that Kammers! I want to eventually make some profit from these guys, or at least break even with what I spend so it is a self-supporting hobby. I'm sure that will take a lot of time and money to get to that point though.

Goodluck with the tests and let me know how it goes.

-Brock

Collide · 07-27-03, 11:52 PM

Hi

Wow what can i say these poor things are getting the short end of the stick here.

I have also reciently lost a female, as well as a male. I have one female left.

I have been doing a lot of thinking and thought that since she is now in a way oversized enclosure and all alone, that mabey she might want to move to Ottawa.

Trace I was wondering if u wanted to take her I trust your cappible hands and well I am now feeling that I cant help her if she needs it. Well she seems to be very healthy, but all alone and I would feel better if she were with a male to make babys to help learn about these guys. So well not sure but if your interested let me know. Im very confused as to why these guys died on me and with no vets willing to help mabey the little cutie would be better off with u.

On A side note: I have notived those tiny little white bugs in the soil like you mentioned in your post above. I have been looking for some thing to get rid of them that was not toxic.