Panacur Effects?

[Samba]

Hey guys, I just wanted to ask you guys what more I should do to encourage my little baby to eat. I got her on March 22, 2003, and she weighed about 7 grams (at about 3 months of age). Pretty tiny!

Anyways, when I first got her (I think it's a her), she ate willingly, and in fact, 4 hours after settling into her new home she ate 7 mealworms (the small ones), and even took two from my fingers. When Darwin was diagnosed with tapeworms, my vet recommended that I dose the Baby and Girl too.

Well, I dewormed the baby, (I haven't dewormed Girl yet because I'll be breeding her soon... not sure what effects the medicine could have on developing eggs, etc.) and since then she hasn't wanted to eat on her own. The first dose of Panacur she received on June 03,2003 and her last dose of Panacur received was sometime around June 13, 2003. She acts normal, and drinks regularly, but has no interest whatsoever in live foods. If I assist feed her (put them in her mouth) she'll chomp down and swallow as if she caught it herself =)

I've tried warming her cage, soaking her, she has everything should could possibly need, and I spoil her rotten. I can't figure out why she won't eat. I don't want her to be the second casualty from my vet, (who I am no longer using, by the way). Right now she eats a few 1/2 inch crickets every other day, but still weighs about 10 grams. Her tail is thin, but not extreme. Any suggestions? I know a lot of people have problems getting their leos to eat, but I can't help but think this is a result of the Panacur. Thanks in advance!

[Pixie]

I have to say that from my experiences, I will never use Panacur on my geckos for deworming or any other possible reasons. In my case, I had one 6-7 month old leo myself and brought 2 home from the April show, one from a trade and 1 I had purchased.

After settling in, the one that I had purchased I noticed did not have much of an appetite and runny stools, my first thought was internal parasites and they were all brought to the vet with the runny stool sample. There were some worms and a treatment of Panacur was prescribed to all, for the affected one and to be sure for the other two.

The affected one really didn't do well and lost a fair amount of weight. She never got emanciated but her tail was definitely slimmer than average and she was totally anorexic and needed to be force fed. The other two lost their appetites almost entirely during the treatments and for some time after. The sick one eventually passed a few weeks later and it took a few weeks for the other two to regain their appetites which was only recently.

I have spoken with other leo owners that have dealt with Panacur themselves and I have only heard negative things about this said medicine. It may be better suited for other species or snakes but it is quite apparent that it is not beneficial to leos.

Pixie

[The_Omen]

It all depends on the type of parasites and the prescribed treatments..
Some parasites will need flagyl to eradicate, others need panacur.

Some vets have no clue about how to dose and administer either in reptiles.

There is one on another forum, whos leo got pinworms, no problem for panacur to flush out, BUT the vet was only prescribing treatment every two to three weeks instead of a once a week regimen.(once a week until the stool is clear of all signs of worms)
All it did was slow them down and let them continue decimating the leo.

You can feed the leo plain yogurt to help with the replenishing of the gut flora during the treatments as any meds in an animal that small seems to deplete them.
B12 is also a great appetite stimulant, drops in the water, mixed in the yogurt or dripped into the mouth will work, but I have had better successes with injectible B12.
Also, are you feeding it in its cage or in a seperate, smaller box?

A smaller box will keep the food a lot closer to the leo and lets it hunt easier (if needed)

One last quick question -
What type of substrate do you have it on?

[Pixie]

The Omen,

Thanks for the great info! I would like to ask a couple more questions if I may.

When I was prescribed Panacur for my leos, my vet did seem to have taken great care in dosing them properly. The doses were quite small ranging from 0.02 to 0.04 ml depending on the weight of the gecko. What I am wondering is if the proper treatment course was prescribed to me as it seems to differ greatly from what you indicate in your above post.

I was told to give the Panacur to each gecko for 5 days consecutively then 10 days off and then 5 more days with Panacur. Does this sound like an effective way to treat parasites in geckos???

I am planning to purchase some Parazap in the near future as it sounds like an interesting preventative and mild treatment.

Pixie

You mention a weekly treatment, is this one dose of Panacur a week until the stools are normal again? This would sound to me a more sound treatment but then again I am quite clueless in medical care for reptiles.

Does replenishing the gut flora with yogurt aid in appetite stimulation alone? Where would one find vitamin B12 drops?

[Samba]

Omen- My baby leo, (like all my leos) is housed on paper towels. Since s/he is no longer volutarily eating, I am assist-feeding him/her. Once I place an insect in her mouth, (this is done by gently pulling at her lips... then inserting the insect partially); s/he usually eats it without problems. Just like a human baby, when she gets full, she'll refuse food, and spit out insects.

I have been doing this since she started Panacur treatments. Her dosage was .05Cc everyday for 10 days. Since deworming, her appetite has not returned as of yet. I do encourage her to eat in a variety of ways. I have tried leaving insects in her dish, but they remain unconsumed. I 'starved' her for 5 days, with no results. I do give her chicken baby food about once a week to try and fatten her up. Everytime I feed my other gecko, I try to encourage the baby to eat.

Just as with Pixie, I had three geckos go to the vet, and one came back positive for tapeworms. That gecko, (Darwin), and the baby were wormed right away. I didn't worm Girl, my female albino, because I expected to breed her for the first time this year. Darwin passed away on June 16 of this year, and prior to treatment, had been a normal gecko. Even still, he weighed 37 grams at his death, he lost about 20 grams over the course of his treatment with Panacur. Now the baby doesn't want to eat, and I am scared of losing her too.

In the past, B12 has helped my geckos regain appetite but I really fear that going to the vet for an injection may cause the baby more harm than good. As I said before, the baby is bright, alert, and active, just not eating. Her weight hasn't dropped signifigantly, but she has lost. I need some ideas here. I think based on what I've learned, and from my experiences with Panacur, I don't think I would use that drug again. What other deworming options are there for leopard geckos? Any without extreme side effects? Thanks again for all your help!

[drewlowe]

Samba

Panacur does cause appetite loss.

I just bought a new book since i'm having a hard time with loki. It's called " Understanding reptile Parasites" by roger j. Klingenberg D.V.M. I haven't read the whole thing cause it just arrived yesturday but i will write what it has about panacur.

Panacur is a member of the important benzimidazole group of anthelmintics which also includes Thiabendazole (TBZ) and Mebendazole(Telmin). Panacur is a broad-spectrum anthelmintic that has a direct effect on adult parasites, some activity againstAgainst migrating larvae, and ovicidal effects brought on by the Prompt sterilization of the aduld worms. Hving effects on migrating larvae, and sterilizing adults so no more eggs are passed, are very important properties. MOst anthelmintics are activfe against adults only.

This group of drugs is extremely safe, with panacur having a margin of safety up to 5,000 times normal dose in mammals, To the author's knowledge, a reptilian death direclty associated with the use of panacur in sankes, lizards, or turltes has never been reported.

Panacur is the drug of choice for nematode parasites. While it also exerts an effct on tapeworms ( cestodes), it is not the drug of choice for them.


Droncit
Various drugs for use with tapewors are listed in the literature. The drug of chooice is Droncit, which is doesd a 5 mg/kg. either as an injectable or as a tablet crushed and mixed with a liquid and tubed. Droncit has also shown some efficacy against extra- intestinal forms of tapeworms and also aginst flukes.

thats as far as i read last night if i find anymore info that may be helpful i'll let ya know. you might also want to look into this book. So far it is helping me understand some of the stuff going on.

I'm also learning about my vets mistakes. In this book it say to give panacur once a week for a few doses until the worms are completely gone. Minimum of 3 weeks.

This book is going to make me and my vet argue. I hope he is prepaired. LOL

[drewlowe]

here are the doses that panacur should be given in.

25-50mg/kg or 10-20 mg/ob, given orally once every 7 days. An alternative dosage regimen is to give 50/mg/kgsplit into 3 consecutive daily doses (15mg per day X 3 days) and then repeating this regimen in 10 days. It generally requires a mininmum of 3 treatment to eliminate nematode parasites.

[The_Omen]

I was told to give the Panacur to each gecko for 5 days consecutively then 10 days off and then 5 more days with Panacur. Does this sound like an effective way to treat parasites in geckos???

Sounds like you were told to give it every day for 5 days?
Wow..Sounds like 5 days of over dose to me...

Usually once a week at the normal dose per leo weight, checking stool weekly, and continuing once a week till clear is good.

Their metabolism is too slow to be able to handle the meds on a daily basis, unlike humans, which need daily meds, most likely in multiples, due to our high metabolism.


The plain yogurt is a two fold device.
It helps nourish the animal to get stronger and the bacterias in it, help replenish the naturally occuring flora in the animals stomach.
When it gets stronger, it will usually be able to eat more and handle it better.

B12 is available at most pet stores here, but as a limited strength ingestible drops from Tetra, labled as 'Stimulap'.
It is a mix of B1, B12 and water and flavoring.
Oral only with it as well.
But I have had very limited successes with the watered down orals..

Now I use an injectible (available at most feed & tack stores) called Maxi-B 1000, that has B1, B2, B6 and B12 together.
For it to be used on a leo.. I would draw about two drops into the syringe and then draw injectible saline into the same syringe till I was at the second line of a 1cc diabetic syringe (thin tubed.. )

It won't take much for a leo.

Jump Start, may be available for you as well, just follow the directions on the tube.
It has vitamins, fat, trace minerals etc. and is an oral type gel (salve)

Here's a quick pic of most of it so that you will recognize it.
From left to right -
Stimulap, injectible saline(on top of baytril), the syringe size i use, Jump Start and in the back Maxi-B (brown bottle)

[drewlowe]

i love jumpstart!!!! my geckos don't mind eating it at all.

Loki is give her parazap (recommended doses) and jumpstart everyday.

[The_Omen]

Drew,
what are the dosing rates for parazap? (mg of parazap per mg-kg of animal)
I have seen it and heard of it being used with good effects, but have never tried it.

[drewlowe]

ummmm i'm not a vet so i don't know exacly the dose rates. I'm just now trying to understand the medical side of this.

I was told by the owner to give my sick leo 1mg for 7 days on 7 days off then 7 days on again but that only because she is so sick. Then after that 1mg for the first five days of every month as a prevenitive. He says since it's natural that you cant ovedose i don't think that true though. but i know during treatment they cannot be given water.

If you would like here is the site www.parazap.com i think it has a dosage amount somewhere but i belive the amount is in pounds so you will have to convert it.

As a side note Samba i highly recommend you check into this along with all other reptile keepers. If you have seen the post on loki then you will understand why i'm boasting this product so much. She ate 1 huge butter worm 3 days ago and 2 last night. she isn't gaining any weight yet but her belly is actually filling out which i belive to be the first step to improvement. all of this i belive is due to the use of parazap, before she was given this natural remedy she had not eaten for at least 4-5 months. and within the second day of treatment she ate for the first time. She also loves the taste of this stuff (it also smells good) she will gulp it down along with some jumpstart at the same time. (I'm giving her jumpstart to try to get some kind of other nutrients in her). and this is a leo that absoutly REFUSED to eat everything.

[The_Omen]

Thanks Drew!

[WingedWolf]

Yeah, I think panacur is still the safest and most reliable de-wormer. It most likely makes them feel sick to their stomachs! <lol>
But consider, while the panacur may make them feel unwell, the parasites will eventually do a lot worse. I'd think it'd be better to get through the temporary downturn caused by the medication, and then they can enjoy good health after they recover from the treatment.

[eyespy]

Dosages are dependent not only on the type of parasite found, but also on how much. I've medicated leos on a 7 days on, 7 days off regimen when they were absolutely riddled with nematodes and they did quite well. A gecko with a minimal infestation would probably have been poisoned from such a high dose but when there are literally tens of thousands of live worms in the intestines eating the med before the gecko gets a chance to absorb it there's not nearly as much overdose risk.

High dosages in my experience work very well if there are at least 150 to 200 nematode eggs spotted on a fecal float slide. I've seen slides with upwards of 1,000 eggs and no way is a once a week dosage of 0.05 to 0.1 ml going to make a dent in an infestation that big. Some common strains of nematodes are beginning to develop resistance to Panacur from underdosing like that.

On slides where 10 or fewer eggs are seen I use the once per week for 2-3 weeks and get good results from that. Anything more would overtax the geckos system as there aren't enough parasites to "preabsorb" the med.

I always let experienced vets evaluate the slides and the weight/health/stress status of any animal before we decide on dosage schedules together. But I realize not everyone has the luxury of vets popping by the house at least once a week.

[Samba]

Thanks for all the info, guys! Jaime, I can't wait to order that parazap! If it'll make my geckos hungry enough to eat that would be all the blessings I need! Everyone has been given different dosages for their geckos (with the Panacur). Most of you say once or twice every other week or so. I was told to give Darwin .20Cc of Panacur everyday for 10 days. Is that too often a dosage? Maybe that is what caused his liver failure? =(

Anyways, the baby still isn't eating. Personally, I think she acts spoiled, but it could be her appetite hasn't returned. If you have any more updates or advice, I'd love to hear it. Thanks again!