Cal King staill hasn't laid???

Tim_Cranwill · 05-27-03, 12:01 AM

Well she laid two slugs about two days ago and hasn't laid her clutch yet. She is a good sized female who should be capable of laying a clutch if any cal king is. Why hasn't she laid yet and when should I worry? She looked like she was on the brink of laying this morning (Moday) and has made no prgress in over twelve hours.

So, what can or should be done?

Vanan · 05-27-03, 03:16 AM

How long has it been since she had her pre-lay shed? Most kings take about 7-10 before dropping all eggs. Some go as much as 12, but not much more.

Tim_Cranwill · 05-27-03, 06:35 AM

Ok, that's not too bad then. She shed on the 22nd. It just made me worry because there is and has been a bulge at her cloaca since yesterday morning. It almost looks as though she can't squeeze that first egg out. But I'll give her more time before I continue worrying!

Thanks Vavan!

gonesnakee · 05-27-03, 12:41 PM

I would not give it more time & would consider intravening right away. I unfortunately have multiple experiences with egg binding & would be concerned at this point. Do you have a decent reptile vet available. Sounds like she is having problems & may need to have help. A good vet would probably manually manipulate out the egg closest to the vent (if possible) or may even consider aspirating it (& possibly others higher up in her). A vet also can give her a shot of oxytocin (I believe thats what its called) to induce her labour by making her muscles work/push. If you wait too long the eggs will become too hard to aspirate & the eggs that were meant to be laid will all start to die inside her. I am getting dejavu of a similar bad experience last week as I type this. If its been going on 3 days since she laid her first eggs & there is a bulge at her vent that isn't coming out you will want to intravene before she has all her eggs bunged up by her vent & is really screwed. If the eggs don't come out in the next while it will eventually be a death sentence for her. The vet may want to surgically remove them if aspiration & inducing don't work but this is very costly & dangerous for the snake also. The operation runs around $300 with no guarantees that your snake will even wake up from being put under, let alone survive without picking up a secondary infection & thats if it is successful. Also whether its successful or not she will no longer be a breeder. I hope for you that she just pushes them all out on her own, but she may be becoming exhausted trying to push out a big egg or quite possibly some infertile eggs that are stuck together. Was she bred to a proven male? It's been my experience that most of the time when you have eggbinding problems it is due to infertile eggs in the clutch. Anyhow I hope I haven't freaked you out, but I would seriously consider intravening if she still hasn't progressed any on her own. GOOD LUCK to both you & her. Mark I.

Tim_Cranwill · 05-27-03, 03:47 PM

Mark, here's the scoop... She was bred to a first time breeder male and it is her first go at it as well. She laid one infertile egg on two consecutive days; the 24th and 25th. Her pre laying shed was on the 22nd. It is now the 27th as I type this. Here is a pic of her bulge...

Any opinions are welcome....

gonesnakee · 05-27-03, 05:09 PM

Hmmm, well she looks OK at this point, not all bunged up or anything. How is she, I mean is she active moving around or is she content to stay in her nesting box. I was worried that her other eggs may have slid down & clustered, but from what I see in the pics they all look like they are still in a row, so to speak. How is she for strength? If she appears weak/tired I would worry maybe, but if she is strong still I wouldn't worry too much. I had a female who had the similar story as her & then low & behold she laid them on her own. It's been my experience that when they have infertile ones in them that they seem to drop them over the period of a few days or even over a week or so, one here, one there kinda like she has done so far. They do this mostly to stress us out, lol. Hopefully she just pushed the duds out early & she'll lay the rest for you tonight. Make sure she is good & warm so she can be nice & active to push out eggs. If she doesn't right away I would consider the Vet for an Oxytocin shot which helps her muscles convulse, instigating labour. Its one of those things thats kinda hard to judge. I've talked to other breeders before & some thought the Oxytocin a waste of time/$, but I have had success doing so twice now. If you wait too long though & she does need some help by aspirating eggs, it makes it difficult because they start to harden up inside her, making it difficult to penertrate them with the siringe. She looks better in the pics then I had imagined so cross your fingers that she'll do her own thing tonight. If she doesn't lay tonight for you, you can also consider giving her a warm bath, letting her swim around & hopefully loosen things up & get them moving maybe, its worked before. Hopefully shes one of those snakes that is just taking her sweet time & is actually having no problems. Let us know how it goes & lets see what everyone else has to say also, People? I myself worry when they don't do things as expected because of the negative experiences I have had in the past. Sometimes a little paranoia can go a long way. Good Luck Again, Mark I.

Tim_Cranwill · 05-27-03, 05:27 PM

Wow, thanks for all the advice Mark! She is not grumpy or anything and she is fairly active and strong. I just keep coming down every morning expecting her to have laid. I hope she's just trying to stress me out!

gonesnakee · 05-28-03, 05:02 PM

I'll join you in worrying as my Striped Charcoal Corn shed yesterday or the day before & she also laid 4 slugs yesterday as well. Now I'm waiting to see what she palns on doing with the rest that are in her. Unfortunately I think they will be infertile, but fingers are crossed. I don't really care if they are good or not as long as she gets them all out of her without any intervention from me or the vet. I have a feeling she will be dropping them here, there & everywhere over the next few days though. Hopefully "yours" & "mine" will just do the "Big Dump" & be done with them. Good Luck Mark I.

Tim_Cranwill · 05-31-03, 09:08 AM

Here she is this morning on day 9 since her shed and 7/6 days after laying those two slugs. She looks as though she has two or more eggs right at her vent. The other day I could see up her cloaca as she had it opened and I saw an egg right there. I figure "good, she's going to lay any minute..." that was over two days ago.

So, here is my question... What is my best bet to get viable eggs out and ensure her safety??? I am going to try a warm bath (she had one yesterday) and a gentle massage. Other than that, it's off to the vet unless anyone with a similar experience can offer me some reassurance or good advice...

Jeff_Favelle · 05-31-03, 01:34 PM

According to my records, I had an Cal. King go to day 12.5 after a pre-lay before she had her eggs (1994). And they were fine. I wouldn't worry (yet).

gonesnakee · 06-02-03, 04:44 PM

I don't know what to tell you. If she was mine I would consider intravention at this point, but as always this is a judgement call that is tough to make. Sounds to me like she is officially eggbound IMO, but you are there & I am here & even if I was there its only an educated guess. Good Luck & let us know.
Mark I.
P.S. the female corn I mentioned above has since dropped 22 more slugs & is done with a total of 26 slugs. Ovulation was obviously missed when breeding with this girl. DOH! Next year. M.I.

Tim_Cranwill · 06-02-03, 06:24 PM

Well, I have spoken to a few breeders and have gotten different advice from each. Some say "get her to a vet!" others say "she'll be fine, just give her more time..." She did her pre lay shed on the 22nd which makes today day #11 since the shed. I have tried gentle handling and a few warm baths to try to loosen her up a bit.

She is active, strong, alert and not too up set when I disturb her. When I have been handling her for a few short minutes everyday or so, she sometimes will discharge a watery fluid with yellow specks or almost chunks in it. It doesn't have much of a scent and it does not "seem" to be a voluntary action on her part.

Here is a question for anyone who really knows the process involved in laying eggs. Does the snake's cloacal opening become dilated like a human's "part" does during childbirth? On several occasions my female's cloaca has been open and... oh, about 1/8" dilated. Does this mean she has had several failed or false labors, or is it just a fluke of some sort? I have never read anything on the actual physical steps an egg laying mother will go through during her labor. Just curious about what others have witnessed with their females...

Jeff_Favelle · 06-02-03, 08:11 PM

She might also be with-holding the eggs due to too much activity (on your part). It makes no evolutionary sense to lay your eggs when bigger animals are close by always looking, touching, prodding, etc etc etrc.

Tim_Cranwill · 06-02-03, 08:21 PM

yup. but i'm just worried.....

Jeff_Favelle · 06-02-03, 08:43 PM

Oh I know man. I hear ya...