3mo boa vomited and now in water bowl

[Bradisa]

I feel terrible. Of course that should have been obvious, just from common sense. I'm happy to report back that she's doing well, moving around a bit but mostly keeping to the warm side. I'm not handling her at all - just letting her continue to acclimate, and now digest. Also, I'm not going to keep feeding her live mice but that's what she was used to. I will find smaller live mice for now until I transition her over to F/T. But I think I should do that later, considering the bumpy ride I've caused her thus far. What do you think?

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Bradisa

I feel terrible. Of course that should have been obvious, just from common sense. I'm happy to report back that she's doing well, moving around a bit but mostly keeping to the warm side. I'm not handling her at all - just letting her continue to acclimate, and now digest. Also, I'm not going to keep feeding her live mice but that's what she was used to. I will find smaller live mice for now until I transition her over to F/T. But I think I should do that later, considering the bumpy ride I've caused her thus far. What do you think?

I'd just go ahead and offer f/t. Boas generally are not picky, and should switch over with no more effort than offering a f/t prey item to them.

[Bradisa]

Thanks again everyone for your help and advice. She's got hardly a bump and so she'll poo soon. But since it was so large of a meal I am going to wait a few days and just go off her behavior, and then I'll see how she does with a F/T hopper.
I'm sure I'm going to make more mistakes, but I'm glad this site is here to get all of your helpful input! Thanks!!!

[TeamSlitherin]

Originally Posted by Bradisa

I feel terrible. Of course that should have been obvious, just from common sense. I'm happy to report back that she's doing well, moving around a bit but mostly keeping to the warm side. I'm not handling her at all - just letting her continue to acclimate, and now digest. Also, I'm not going to keep feeding her live mice but that's what she was used to. I will find smaller live mice for now until I transition her over to F/T. But I think I should do that later, considering the bumpy ride I've caused her thus far. What do you think?

No need to feel bad; you didn't know! You're little one will bounce right back. You've obviously done a great job of taking advice, so you'll learn some things as you go. They're really very hardy beasts. You could probably go straight to f/t, as boas rarely refuse food. Just be sure to warm it up to about 100 degrees. A smaller meal every 7 days is sufficient for even a young boa. Aim for 10-15% of body weight.

Good luck!

[Bradisa]

Ok so just so I know that I have the type of boa that I think I have, could you look and confirm that I have a b.c.i.?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rsihrhirsp...305_175544.jpg
And just because the color might be Misleading, here's another pic under different light.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x2i4typkrb...305_175655.jpg.
Thanks!

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by TeamSlitherin

No need to feel bad; you didn't know! You're little one will bounce right back. You've obviously done a great job of taking advice, so you'll learn some things as you go. They're really very hardy beasts. You could probably go straight to f/t, as boas rarely refuse food. Just be sure to warm it up to about 100 degrees. A smaller meal every 7 days is sufficient for even a young boa. Aim for 10-15% of body weight.

Good luck!

10-15% is power feeding, I'd aim for below 10%. The Munsen plan was developed for corn snakes, to get them to breeding size faster. It is not a universal feeding regimen for every species of any age. I don't feed based off of weight, but my meals generally sit around 6-8% for juveniles and 2-6% for adults. This is giving them meals that are roughly the size of their girth that either leave a barely noticeable bulge or none at all, and can be as small as 3/4 of their girth for adults.

Originally Posted by Bradisa

Ok so just so I know that I have the type of boa that I think I have, could you look and confirm that I have a b.c.i.?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rsihrhirsp...305_175544.jpg
And just because the color might be Misleading, here's another pic under different light.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x2i4typkrb...305_175655.jpg.
Thanks!

Yup, 100% BI (previously BCI, but they are now their own species).

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by TeamSlitherin

No need to feel bad; you didn't know! You're little one will bounce right back. You've obviously done a great job of taking advice, so you'll learn some things as you go. They're really very hardy beasts. You could probably go straight to f/t, as boas rarely refuse food. Just be sure to warm it up to about 100 degrees. A smaller meal every 7 days is sufficient for even a young boa. Aim for 10-15% of body weight.

Good luck!

Follow this great advice!

Originally Posted by Bradisa

Ok so just so I know that I have the type of boa that I think I have, could you look and confirm that I have a b.c.i.?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rsihrhirsp...305_175544.jpg
And just because the color might be Misleading, here's another pic under different light.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x2i4typkrb...305_175655.jpg.
Thanks!

Yup. Exactly what you have.

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

10-15% is power feeding, I'd aim for below 10%. The Munsen plan was developed for corn snakes, to get them to breeding size faster. It is not a universal feeding regimen for every species of any age. I don't feed based off of weight, but my meals generally sit around 6-8% for juveniles and 2-6% for adults. This is giving them meals that are roughly the size of their girth that either leave a barely noticeable bulge or none at all, and can be as small as 3/4 of their girth for adults.



Yup, 100% BI (previously BCI, but they are now their own species).

You're still underfeeding your snakes?

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

You're still underfeeding your snakes?

You still overfeeding your's? Considering my boas are all of good weight, and the ones that are growing are growing well, no plateauing or regression now that they're in my care and being fed again, I don't really tend to lean towards your feeding regimen. If I was underfeeding my adults, my adult ghost male would not have gained 200 grams while in my care (though I haven't measured him to see if that's from length growth or just weight gain), and my jungle female would have lost a significant amount of weight over the almost 2 years I've had her.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

10-15% is power feeding, I'd aim for below 10%. The Munsen plan was developed for corn snakes, to get them to breeding size faster. It is not a universal feeding regimen for every species of any age. I don't feed based off of weight, but my meals generally sit around 6-8% for juveniles and 2-6% for adults. This is giving them meals that are roughly the size of their girth that either leave a barely noticeable bulge or none at all, and can be as small as 3/4 of their girth for adults.

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

You still overfeeding your's? Considering my boas are all of good weight, and the ones that are growing are growing well, no plateauing or regression now that they're in my care and being fed again, I don't really tend to lean towards your feeding regimen. If I was underfeeding my adults, my adult ghost male would not have gained 200 grams while in my care (though I haven't measured him to see if that's from length growth or just weight gain), and my jungle female would have lost a significant amount of weight over the almost 2 years I've had her.

I re-quoted your previous comment because I wanted to highlight my point.

You and your animals have popped up on BOI boards and there's a large amount of people who believe you underfeed and want to find a way to take your animals from you.

But whatever, I want to point out a few things about feeding snakes.

Snakes are predators. Same as babies in other species, they need to grow a lot in their first year to be able to sustain themselves, protect themselves and get the right amount of brain development, etc. Feeding them what you're suggesting is downright starvation.

For the record, if we take a 40 gram baby boa and feed it the max weight you suggest of 8% of weight it means you're offering a prey item 3.2 grams! That's a pinky or fuzzy mouse AT BEST! Babies should actually be feed more appropriate sized items closer to 20% their body weight.

Now in your next example you suggest adults 2 - 6% of body weight.

Let's take a 2500 gram adult boa/python. That is 50 grams to 150 grams. You're SUGGESTING people should feed rat weanlings to adult fricking boas! HOW IS THIS NOT UNDERFEEDING?! Especially since you recommend to feed this only once every 3 weeks!

My animals, even my boas, grow at a smooth and regular growth rate. There's no overfeeding done. If there was I'd have been breeding my female suriname by now.

[Andy_G]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I re-quoted your previous comment because I wanted to highlight my point.

You and your animals have popped up on BOI boards and there's a large amount of people who believe you underfeed and want to find a way to take your animals from you.

But whatever, I want to point out a few things about feeding snakes.

Snakes are predators. Same as babies in other species, they need to grow a lot in their first year to be able to sustain themselves, protect themselves and get the right amount of brain development, etc. Feeding them what you're suggesting is downright starvation.

For the record, if we take a 40 gram baby boa and feed it the max weight you suggest of 8% of weight it means you're offering a prey item 3.2 grams! That's a pinky or fuzzy mouse AT BEST! Babies should actually be feed more appropriate sized items closer to 20% their body weight.

Now in your next example you suggest adults 2 - 6% of body weight.

Let's take a 2500 gram adult boa/python. That is 50 grams to 150 grams. You're SUGGESTING people should feed rat weanlings to adult fricking boas! HOW IS THIS NOT UNDERFEEDING?! Especially since you recommend to feed this only once every 3 weeks!

My animals, even my boas, grow at a smooth and regular growth rate. There's no overfeeding done. If there was I'd have been breeding my female suriname by now.

Objectively, I'm inclined to agree with the above.

Now I'm going to take my moderator hat off for a second...

Subjectively, I have to say that it's pretty insulting for you, BSG, to insinuate that Aaron is feeding his animals incorrectly when it's pretty clear that you've had issues in the past that weren't dealt with accordingly. I've known this guy for almost 17 years now and can say without question that he's much more experienced and knowledgeable than you appear to be and has excellent practices that many should follow. He also doesn't have his heels stuck in and is open to constructive criticism if what's being said actually makes sense and isn't just ripped from a book or the internet. At this point, you simply have a very strong opinion that you can't back up. Unbelievable.

[Bradisa]

Aaron, Andy, you may be right, and my exposure to all the folks here is limited, but I am grateful to BSG for helping to calm my nerves.
I think that one of the greatest benefits with a forum is the ability to receive multiple opinions across the gamut. Not knowing any history, I have to accept that you have had prior experiences which shape your current position toward some who post here, and so I'm going to stay out of it. However, I for one felt as though I received some good advice from her related to my concerns.
That being said...
My girl seems to swung 180 degrees from not eating to appearing to be constantly anticipating food. I have been careful to reach in with my hand fully open (fingers together) and take her out regularly for short periods, but the moment I approach her viv, she looks ready to pounce.
Still awaiting my F/T which should arrive tmrw, so I've been giving her live hoppers which leave hardly a bulge. And maybe I've overindulged her but she's had 3 in the last 8 days, seemingly all too eager to feed.
Once the F/T's arrive, I want to set her up on a good schedule, but it seems I should not be going off of her cues, as she seems willing to eat at any time. I'll keep perusing the forum but if you have a basic rule of thumb )which seems to differ from BSG) please let me know.
Thanks again!

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Bradisa

Aaron, Andy, you may be right, and my exposure to all the folks here is limited, but I am grateful to BSG for helping to calm my nerves.
I think that one of the greatest benefits with a forum is the ability to receive multiple opinions across the gamut. Not knowing any history, I have to accept that you have had prior experiences which shape your current position toward some who post here, and so I'm going to stay out of it. However, I for one felt as though I received some good advice from her related to my concerns.
That being said...
My girl seems to swung 180 degrees from not eating to appearing to be constantly anticipating food. I have been careful to reach in with my hand fully open (fingers together) and take her out regularly for short periods, but the moment I approach her viv, she looks ready to pounce.
Still awaiting my F/T which should arrive tmrw, so I've been giving her live hoppers which leave hardly a bulge. And maybe I've overindulged her but she's had 3 in the last 8 days, seemingly all too eager to feed.
Once the F/T's arrive, I want to set her up on a good schedule, but it seems I should not be going off of her cues, as she seems willing to eat at any time. I'll keep perusing the forum but if you have a basic rule of thumb )which seems to differ from BSG) please let me know.
Thanks again!

I am happy you've gotten good advice from BSG. I disagree vehemently with her feeding advice but she does give some other good pointers and I'm not against giving credit where it's due.

As for your snake, you're correct in not going off her cues. Snakes are built to be opportunistic feeders. Quite often they will eat when offered because their built to eat when possible as they don't know when the next meal is coming.

A hopper mouse is fine, I'd goto an adult mouse once a week for the time being.

As for handling, good idea. You can use something like a snake hook to tap the snake gently on the head or back and it usually pulls a snake out of "feeding/hunting mode".

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I re-quoted your previous comment because I wanted to highlight my point.

You and your animals have popped up on BOI boards and there's a large amount of people who believe you underfeed and want to find a way to take your animals from you.

But whatever, I want to point out a few things about feeding snakes.

Snakes are predators. Same as babies in other species, they need to grow a lot in their first year to be able to sustain themselves, protect themselves and get the right amount of brain development, etc. Feeding them what you're suggesting is downright starvation.

For the record, if we take a 40 gram baby boa and feed it the max weight you suggest of 8% of weight it means you're offering a prey item 3.2 grams! That's a pinky or fuzzy mouse AT BEST! Babies should actually be feed more appropriate sized items closer to 20% their body weight.

Now in your next example you suggest adults 2 - 6% of body weight.

Let's take a 2500 gram adult boa/python. That is 50 grams to 150 grams. You're SUGGESTING people should feed rat weanlings to adult fricking boas! HOW IS THIS NOT UNDERFEEDING?! Especially since you recommend to feed this only once every 3 weeks!

My animals, even my boas, grow at a smooth and regular growth rate. There's no overfeeding done. If there was I'd have been breeding my female suriname by now.

If it was a 40 gram newborn baby that's one thing...but the smallest baby boa I've gotten was 80 grams, eating a hopper mouse every 10-14 days. Which falls within the 6-8% I quote. 20% is power feeding, that is 2x the girth of a baby boa. I have fed meals 10-15% of their weight, and it leaves a very large bulge with scale separation, which is against what Vin Russo suggests.

A 2,500 gram boa is not an adult, unless it's a dwarf. My adults are 4,000-6,000 grams and get a large rat 150-275 grams. Or a 1/2 rabbit. My smallest adult is ~1,100-1,200 grams and gets a small rat 45-80 grams, which is closer to 3.75-7% of his weight. He gets one of those every 3 weeks. He has gained 200 grams in my care, and his weird shaped head that I suspect may have been from undernourishment from his previous owners is starting to look like a normal boa head. He would not be gaining weight and body tone if my feeding regimen was starving him.

As far as my babies, they are also growing quite well. They aren't the monster 5'-6' yearlings, but they're healthy. I would be glad to set up a thread with their progress if you want to see, but I'm not going to clog up this person's thread with your unfounded issues.

I am feeding the way other, more experienced boa keepers have advised me to feed them, and I continue to feed them this way because the 4-5 years I've been feeding my boas in this way has yielded good results. You can think it's underfeeding all you want, but it's only underfeeding if you view obese 5' 1 year olds and 6' 2 year olds already breeding as the norm. My young boas are well on their way to becoming normal-sized adults, but still have another 2-3 years of growth before they hit adult sizes, as it should be.

Originally Posted by Andy_G

Objectively, I'm inclined to agree with the above.

Now I'm going to take my moderator hat off for a second...

Subjectively, I have to say that it's pretty insulting for you, BSG, to insinuate that Aaron is feeding his animals incorrectly when it's pretty clear that you've had issues in the past that weren't dealt with accordingly. I've known this guy for almost 17 years now and can say without question that he's much more experienced and knowledgeable than you appear to be and has excellent practices that many should follow. He also doesn't have his heels stuck in and is open to constructive criticism if what's being said actually makes sense and isn't just ripped from a book or the internet. At this point, you simply have a very strong opinion that you can't back up. Unbelievable.

Which issues are you attributing to underfeeding? The only issues I've had were related to a trailer with such bad air quality it had to be condemned, that caused health issues in a few (not all) of my snakes, our cats, and ourselves. If there are other issues you've seen, I'd be glad to hear them, as neither me nor my vet have been able to determine them.

I do also want to add, that all the snakes (including Cloud now thank goodness) are improving now that they're out of that trailer. Cloud is the only remaining snake that I have any worries about health issues, and he's coming around. Slowly, but surely.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Also I really wish the people willing to take my snakes off of my hands would have come forward when I was trying to rehome everyone last year. But instead, I got to stuff 6 snakes in a tiny trailer room last-minute because my mother was incapable of properly caring for them for me and literally no one. NO ONE. Besides the kind SerpentineDream here, came forward to take a single other snake off of my hands. I wanted them to go good homes rather than force them through the stress of the emergency move that came once the trailer literally started collapsing in on itself. But those "kind" people that are underhandedly trying to take my snakes away? Where were they when I did need someone to take them?

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

If it was a 40 gram newborn baby that's one thing...but the smallest baby boa I've gotten was 80 grams, eating a hopper mouse every 10-14 days. Which falls within the 6-8% I quote. 20% is power feeding, that is 2x the girth of a baby boa. I have fed meals 10-15% of their weight, and it leaves a very large bulge with scale separation, which is against what Vin Russo suggests.

A 2,500 gram boa is not an adult, unless it's a dwarf. My adults are 4,000-6,000 grams and get a large rat 150-275 grams. Or a 1/2 rabbit. My smallest adult is ~1,100-1,200 grams and gets a small rat 45-80 grams, which is closer to 3.75-7% of his weight. He gets one of those every 3 weeks. He has gained 200 grams in my care, and his weird shaped head that I suspect may have been from undernourishment from his previous owners is starting to look like a normal boa head. He would not be gaining weight and body tone if my feeding regimen was starving him.

As far as my babies, they are also growing quite well. They aren't the monster 5'-6' yearlings, but they're healthy. I would be glad to set up a thread with their progress if you want to see, but I'm not going to clog up this person's thread with your unfounded issues.

I am feeding the way other, more experienced boa keepers have advised me to feed them, and I continue to feed them this way because the 4-5 years I've been feeding my boas in this way has yielded good results. You can think it's underfeeding all you want, but it's only underfeeding if you view obese 5' 1 year olds and 6' 2 year olds already breeding as the norm. My young boas are well on their way to becoming normal-sized adults, but still have another 2-3 years of growth before they hit adult sizes, as it should be.



Which issues are you attributing to underfeeding? The only issues I've had were related to a trailer with such bad air quality it had to be condemned, that caused health issues in a few (not all) of my snakes, our cats, and ourselves. If there are other issues you've seen, I'd be glad to hear them, as neither me nor my vet have been able to determine them.

I do also want to add, that all the snakes (including Cloud now thank goodness) are improving now that they're out of that trailer. Cloud is the only remaining snake that I have any worries about health issues, and he's coming around. Slowly, but surely.

So your original question was I still overfeeding my snakes. When I recommend my feeding regime it's for pretty much every species. I've tested it out on boas, pythons, colubrids and since I own all three currently which one would you like to discuss?

So for me a 2500 gram animal is an adult ball python. why would I feed her a 50 gram rat once every 3 weeks?

If you want to strictly talk about boas we can do that. All of mine, from sonoran hypos to amazon tree boas, grow at a moderate rate. None have ever reached this obese state you speak of with 5 feet of growth in a year and are breeding. Even my males aren't breeding ready by year 1.

My female albino BI is pushing 6000 grams but she's about 7 years old now. She's fed on a 4 week schedule because her meals are 600 ish grams and well that's a fair sized meal so we space them out.

Now I can certainly see where your animals on your feeding regime would be gaining weight considering they hadn't eaten in what did you say? 4 months? Of course they'd put on weight if they never really drank water, ate or had adequate heating. You're lucky you have boas and not harder to keep species.

I will FOREVER disagree with your statement. I know a few boa breeders myself and they are completely different than you with great success over a long period of time. They also don't see animals get to 5 foot in a year or grow to this obese state you speak of.

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

Also I really wish the people willing to take my snakes off of my hands would have come forward when I was trying to rehome everyone last year. But instead, I got to stuff 6 snakes in a tiny trailer room last-minute because my mother was incapable of properly caring for them for me and literally no one. NO ONE. Besides the kind SerpentineDream here, came forward to take a single other snake off of my hands. I wanted them to go good homes rather than force them through the stress of the emergency move that came once the trailer literally started collapsing in on itself. But those "kind" people that are underhandedly trying to take my snakes away? Where were they when I did need someone to take them?

I can't speak for other people specifically but what I can do is say maybe they weren't on this forum, maybe they didn't see your cry for help or maybe, like me, lived in a different country and didn't want to deal with CITES. The pics that were referenced were posts of yours with one of your 2 year old snakes in the palm of your hand and you thought it's growth was just fine. I won't get into your personal issues at this time because that's something people go through and sometimes we can't foresee how bad things get and are stuck between a rock and a hard place.