Keeping snakes without a hotspot

[TRD]

Reptiles, or snakes in particular, also thermoregulate to control their digestion and conserve energy in the wild. I don't agree with the want/has to statement due to that, they 'choose to' is probably closer to reality.

It would be an interesting experiment to do, but you need a controlled environment and a medical study behind that so that long terms effects can be established. Going by anecdotal evidence because some people use this method, doesn't guarantee it is healthy for the animal. (most) Snakes can survive their entire live in sub optimal conditions, they are extremely hardy. Actually, most living organisms can.

I for one would rather go with scientific data on this subject before coming to any conclusion here. In the meantime I would continue to replicate their natural environment as close as possible.

[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by jjhill001

A snake doesn't WANT to thermoregulate, a snake HAS to thermoregulate. I think that the amount of breeders using this method and the sheer number of animals that have been raised with controlled ambient temperatures proves, at least to me that a snake doesn't need to thermoregulate.

Thermoregulation is something that keepers force on their snakes would be my counter point to your last statement. The keeper is in control of everything. Literally every aspect of their care is forced upon them by us.

I refer to my earlier point about breeding. Breeding success in its own is no evidence of good husbandry be it snakes, dogs, rabbits whatever.

Snakes have evolved over millions of years to thermoregulate so why should we decide to override this evolutionary trait?

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

I refer to my earlier point about breeding. Breeding success in its own is no evidence of good husbandry be it snakes, dogs, rabbits whatever.

Snakes have evolved over millions of years to thermoregulate so why should we decide to override this evolutionary trait?

I think that thermoregulation is an adapted behavior in order to survive it's environment.

When we rank the things that are important to a snake, the #1 is security.

Let's do a thought experiment. Let's say we set up a cage, this cage is going to have a substrate that it can't burrow in or get under. The only things in the cage are 1 hide box and a water bowl. We place the hide box anywhere in that cage, hot spot, just warm side, cool side. Lets say our hotspot is on the higher end of things 90F and the cool side furthest from the heat is suboptimal cool temperature of 74F.

If we place the hide box on the cool side I would bet that snake will spend the majority of it's time in sub-optimal temperatures, if we place the hide over the hot spot, the snake will likely spend the majority of it's time there, 90F is also a sub-optimal temp for a snake to spend most of it's time at.

Now lets extrapolate this out to one of the most common setups we see. Hot side, cold side, 2 hides, one over the hot side and one over the cool side. In this very common type of setup, what we are doing is essentially forcing the snake to choose between two sub-optimal temperatures.

A snake is an ambush predator, even more so the boas and pythons, the snake doesn't WANT to move around all the time. Moving puts the snake at risk of predation and giving away it's spot to prey items. This isn't to say they should not be given plenty of room, as I feel that they will still explore of their own accord as I've seen in my snakes.

Particularly the arboreal tropical snakes never bask, its just hot as heck during the day, they wait it out, then at night when it's closer to 76-80 degrees do they begin moving about.

A carpet python which is a very interesting species because they extend through just about every climate that Australia has to offer except for the desert areas, the range map wraps around the entire continent almost lol. The climate extends from almost Mediterranean in Perth and Cairns which are in the South Western and North Eastern areas of Australia (Never too cool lows, never too hot highs) to something more akin to those Alberta Bull Snakes from earlier which is what the Melbourne animals go through. I would bet, and we'd need a few Australian field herpers to weigh in. But I'd bet that it's easier to find Carpet Pythons in the north and south west in the morning and evenings, I bet the Melbourne animals are easier to find out basking in the day time because it gets so cold there.

The breeder who brought this to my attention's specialty was the Morelia group of snakes to include the Diamond Pythons. It just works on too many different species of snakes, across too many different continents, biomes, climates and types to not give at least some credence to the theory.

[TRD]

There is of course sense in what your saying, but there are too many unknowns to advocate it with a good enough degree of certainty;

• We do not understand to full biological processes attached to basking / thermoregulating. We don't know if there's a purpose for them bringing their body temperatures above optimal for short times, or below optimal, without medical research into that area. We do know they benefit from certain types of radiation (UVA/B, IR-A, B, C) and particularly the IR range cannot be given without creating a hot zone. Heat from IR is used for a lot of metabolic processes and support the immune system. Now in a sterile environment this could be less of an issue, but it doesn't advocate good health

• We do not know the optimal body temperature for x species of reptiles, and even if we do know this temperature, how do we know we are giving the right temperature without inserting some sort of probe into the reptile, after all they can't regulate their own if we give them 1 temperature to deal with

• It is inherit behavior of the reptile to bask and cool down, this is their lifestyle, be it forced upon them, by choice, or whatever reason. They have been doing so successfully for a very very long time. If it would of been a sub-optimal method for their biology, they would of long ago evolved into warm blooded animals or became extinct as a result. Yet they thrive and do just fine with this method

Overall the research and evidences that this is a proper way to keep your animals is not there. If one would research it and come with the proper evidences to substantiate this way of keeping, then sure. People keep water monitors in a rack, and they do fine in a rack too. Is it OK? People give supplements containing D3 for animals that need UV light so that they do not need to give UV light, again the animal will do fine, but it's not OK. I'm very skeptic on methods that just rub me the wrong way because my common sense is screaming inside of me. It's just how I am build I guess, so I'm pretty skeptic of this because of that. I just hope people don't take it as hard headed or offensive, I usually seem to get that

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by TRD

There is of course sense in what your saying, but there are too many unknowns to advocate it with a good enough degree of certainty;

• We do not understand to full biological processes attached to basking / thermoregulating. We don't know if there's a purpose for them bringing their body temperatures above optimal for short times, or below optimal, without medical research into that area. We do know they benefit from certain types of radiation (UVA/B, IR-A, B, C) and particularly the IR range cannot be given without creating a hot zone. Heat from IR is used for a lot of metabolic processes and support the immune system. Now in a sterile environment this could be less of an issue, but it doesn't advocate good health

• We do not know the optimal body temperature for x species of reptiles, and even if we do know this temperature, how do we know we are giving the right temperature without inserting some sort of probe into the reptile, after all they can't regulate their own if we give them 1 temperature to deal with

• It is inherit behavior of the reptile to bask and cool down, this is their lifestyle, be it forced upon them, by choice, or whatever reason. They have been doing so successfully for a very very long time. If it would of been a sub-optimal method for their biology, they would of long ago evolved into warm blooded animals or became extinct as a result. Yet they thrive and do just fine with this method

Overall the research and evidences that this is a proper way to keep your animals is not there. If one would research it and come with the proper evidences to substantiate this way of keeping, then sure. People keep water monitors in a rack, and they do fine in a rack too. Is it OK? People give supplements containing D3 for animals that need UV light so that they do not need to give UV light, again the animal will do fine, but it's not OK. I'm very skeptic on methods that just rub me the wrong way because my common sense is screaming inside of me. It's just how I am build I guess, so I'm pretty skeptic of this because of that. I just hope people don't take it as hard headed or offensive, I usually seem to get that

I encourage that kind of debate, I do not take offense to it at all so don't worry about that. I'll agree that it seemed crazy to me as well and I would continue to have the same reaction if I hadn't had the results I've had and if I hadn't seen the results of others. As I said before the only reason there isn't a surefire answer to this is that biologists don't give two craps about captive snake husbandry. All it would take to prove or disprove the theory would be to drop a temperature probe into a food item and actually measure the core body temperature of a snake throughout the week to figure out what's going on.

I would say to your first point, you're absolutely correct in that we aren't entirely sure about the exact processes. They have done the temperature probe thing with alligators back in 2003, a much "sexier" animal to study. Here is the abstract from that study:

Abstract:
Regulation of body temperature may increase fitness of animals by ensuring that biochemical and physiological processes proceed at an optimal rate. The validity of current methods of testing whether or not thermoregulation in reptiles occurs is often limited to very small species that have near zero heat capacity. The aim of this study was to develop a method that allows estimation of body temperature null distributions of large reptiles and to investigate seasonal thermoregulation in the American alligator (Alligator mississippiensis). Continuous body temperature records of wild alligators were obtained from implanted dataloggers in winter (n=7, mass range: 1.6-53.6 kg) and summer (n=7, mass range: 1.9-54.5 kg). Body temperature null distributions were calculated by randomising behavioural postures, thereby randomly altering relative animal surface areas exposed to different avenues of heat transfer. Core body temperatures were predicted by calculations of transient heat transfer by conduction and blood flow. Alligator body temperatures follow regular oscillations during the day. Occasionally, body temperature steadied during the day to fall within a relatively narrow range. Rather than indicating shuttling thermoregulation, however, this pattern could be predicted from random movements. Average daily body temperature increases with body mass in winter but not in summer. Daily amplitudes of body temperature decrease with increasing body mass in summer but not in winter. These patterns result from differential exposure to heat transfer mechanisms at different seasons. In summer, alligators are significantly cooler than predictions for a randomly moving animal, and the reverse is the case in winter. Theoretical predictions show, however, that alligators can be warmer in winter if they maximised their sun exposure. We concluded that alligators may not rely exclusively on regulation of body temperature but that they may also acclimatise biochemically to seasonally changing environmental conditions.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12905121

What this study showed is that the core temperatures of the alligators fell within a narrow range. And the last sentence shows that alligators potentially do not entirely rely on external regulation of temperatures.

We know that snakes can do this as well, evidenced by various pythons who curl around their eggs which can increase the temperature with no external help. And also, and you can do this with a snake in a static ambient temperature with a temp gun if a snake is digesting a decent enough sized food item, the snake will actually get warmer because it's digesting that food item.

Does it perhaps lead us to the conclusion that maybe a snake's core temperature is more or less basically the same throughout the day, affected primarily by seemingly random movements? I'm not gonna say that it does, but it makes me think.

I've drawn the conclusion that snakes in the wild avoid the extremes of their native environments. Snakes in the wild shut down when exposed to constant highs, constant lows, very high humidity levels and very low humidity levels etc. Even snakes from more moderate climates such as the temperate North American species will change their behaviors to a more nocturnal, lifestyle when the temperatures get too hot.

I know there are people out there who constantly mist their tropical snakes, maintain very high humidity levels. With the lower temperatures this becomes unnecessary in order to maintain hydration levels because the snake isn't metabolizing water as fast. You get to essentially remove a variable that can cause problems. High humidity when combined with various temperatures can lead to scale rot, an over population of disease causing bacteria which lead to respiratory infections, all sorts of issues. Low humidity with high temperatures can cause dehydration issues etc.

For me the results have spoken for themselves.

To your last point and conclusion, what decides what is OK? We only have a few measurable factors as keepers in order to tell if a snake is in a good condition. Is a snake feeding, is it shedding properly, is it breeding, does it appear to be thriving, will it breed? That's essentially all we have. If someone hands you a snake that is raised with this method could you tell? I can tell if someone hands me a snake that has problems or is raised in sub-optimal conditions pretty easily, I imagine that you can too. I'm beginning to think that perhaps that the window of what people consider to considered optimal is a lot more narrow than what the snakes consider it to be.

There have been many, many studies conducted on wild reptiles. There have been precious few actual scientific studies done on captive reptiles and husbandry methods and the ones available are primarily in regards to disease and a few on UVB exposure. So when it comes to the research aspect of their care, I say there isn't much. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence based on the accounts of individual keepers, enough anecdotal evidence can be quite valuable and convincing. I find that people will only dismiss anecdotal evidence if it disagrees with what they already think. There isn't as much anecdotal evidence for this method, I believe because of the fierce backlash that is often received when it is discussed that people just kind of do their own thing and don't bother anyone about it. That said, I do thank you and others in this thread for not acting like children and just "screaming" the idea away as I've seen in the past.

Snake care over the hobby's brief history has evolved tremendously. Many care strategies that were once accepted as fact have been proven false, irrelevant or at worse dangerous. What I'm doing is unconventional I'll admit, but I feel as if my logic is sound and my results are my evidence for that.

Here are a few pictures of my snakes:

Dragon Armor Scales - Album on Imgur

Lucy dinner time and time outside.Â* - Album on Imgur

Finally able to get some pics out in the sun.Â* - Album on Imgur

[akane]

Originally Posted by jjhill001

I think the theory only works when we're talking snakes. Every other reptile "type" I think would have to be taken individually. Maybe there is a lizard number, a frog number, salamander, maybe this is something that is unique to snakes, who knows, it's incredibly interesting to be honest. We now have a report of someone doing something similar with tortoises in the thread. Could there be a "general acceptable temp" for each various family of reptiles? Honestly who knows. I'm gonna say probably not but who knows.

I think that there is less of a physiological difference between most snake species to other snake species, tortoise to other tortoise species than there is with say lizards, turtles, and salamanders. And perhaps that is what lends this method to those two types of reptiles best.

Overall I think it's really interesting.

My limited experience with lizards there is definitely no magic number to keep them all. I have crested geckos that would live in the upper levels of the cloud forest of new caledonia and are often kept unheated at room temp with breeding down to 68F and overheat easily so they are not kept over 80F with very rarely a basking spot. If used, relying on supplemented commercial diets has become more common, UV is often fluorescent lighting based instead of producing much heat. Having looked at native lizard species and biggest concentration seeming to be the hotter areas of the continent there are some truly diurnal desert dwellers that have a cool end in the 80s-90s during the day and basking spots over 100F. Many desert lizard species will be visible when snakes have sought shelter. The range is quite huge with lizards.


My captive keeping experience may have only reached it's first year but I wouldn't say all snakes only thermoregulate out of necessity. I see snake care rolled together like they are one species and often based on tropical or exotic species that are too busy avoiding heat or seeing little variation between day and night and I can understand some of the single temp rooms for large pythons and boas that I have seen people setup. They have limited basking and are probably quite content if they can maintain one ideal temp. Snakes are not one species though and I don't think just matching a temp and humidity ideal between species is enough difference in care for their difference in behavior and natural environment. For my North American natives I've had some that I switched from having a basking bulb to consistent heat with a fluorescent for lighting and despite being the same temperature all the time now they still go looking for the light when it comes on to find no increase in temp and return to hiding instead of laying out in the open like they used to. I have a corn that loves a lizard UV basking bulb and seeks it out beyond temps she will seek out from a CHE gradient. I tested the 2nd corn I now have and he also will seek out a basking bulb that is not UV but ignore the 24/7 che when the basking bulb goes off and simply go into shelter to wait for the next day instead.

It seems instinctual by some snakes to bask to the point I might consider it enrichment behavior and it certainly makes them more enjoyable to watch. Really all behaviors developed out of environmental need to survive but to not fulfill those behaviors has been seen more easily in mammals to cause various unhealthy changes in behavior despite removing the need for them. Maybe we can't compare the 2 but we have little research to prove either way so I'll go by what I see. I find my bulls are actually calmer and put on less of their defensive show when they get to go bask on a rock platform or area of warmed open dirt between decor. Contrary to the wild warm snakes being more aggressive than cold but these snakes are comfortable with me around and remain basking without caring what I'm doing compared to when they are actively moving about the cool end of the enclosure or getting protective inside a cool hide. When they aren't lazily basking you are far more likely to get bluffing strikes out of them.

On the other end, which shows species difference, my desert king responds to cooling events. Instead of giving him basking spots he comes out on "rain days" I mimic for the bioactive critters to stay alive or if I run 2 lights so one goes out and cools partially in the evening. His activity is limited to drinking, checking for rodents, and going back to shelter if kept at any one temp even on the low end of the suggested range for their health with no attempt to bask when temps are low but he becomes extremely active for hours even with lights still on if he has a hot and cool period. It is far more interesting to watch him explore all over the entire evening when he is kept warm during the day with a temp drop shortly before lights out than to try to keep him at one temp where he hides, drinks, checks for rodents, hides, and stops to eat quickly on feeding day. In his previous tank I actually didn't see him for a week at a time because he'd use burrowing instead of hides and I provided no "rain days" because it had no bioactive cleanup crew or temp changes so he probably grabbed some water nocturnally and occasionally you'd see his black head meant to blend in sticking out to check things from his burrow. The rodent disappeared off the feeding rock and sheds would appear about the time I'd start threatening to dig him out and I was keeping him cooler than I keep his daytime now. There was just no change between day and night and no other cooling events so instinctually he never came out into the heat during lights on or for long periods even if it wasn't as hot.

I love watching the behaviors they display when you mimic parts of the environment you can and I see no increased stress from doing so or decreased stress just keeping them at what is considered to be the ideal for them across the enclosure 24/7. I am talking about specific species though. I learned I wouldn't do it with a blood python. I'd rather have a fully controlled specific room that does not have a gradient, basking, or cooling because they do not seem to respond with anywhere near the same strength to any of those things except to become reactive at higher temps. They don't seek changing conditions with the same vigor and seem quite content to sit, waiting for something like prey, at a set temp and humidity all the time. It is such different behavior and responses between species evolved in such different environments that I would no longer apply the same type of husbandry because, ignoring enjoyment of behavior displays, it did not even result in equally healthy snakes.

[Doug 351]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Sorry Doug but a single piece of anecdotal evidence will not work here. A single person texting in their car while driving isn't proof that it doesn't kill/cause accidents.



You say you don't want oudated opinions but this seems to be the product you're talking about and Zoo Med has updated their site/product information since you last looked (if you ever did).

https://zoomed.com/repticare-rock-heater/

I'll break down the points:

1. Not to be used a sole heat source for tropical animals. (Which you did and is your current argument)

2. Do not bury it in anything. (You did this too.)

3. Has a rheostat not a thermostat built in. (Different tools and the rheostat means you have to monitor the temperature of it constantly and adjust the dial.)

4. If your animal is lying on it constantly it's too cold. (Your iguana did this according to you which means your animal was living in substandard care. I know you didn't know about it and I would guess would have changed had you known) However, the most important about this is you didn't try to learn or look for new information. You have an outdated opinion which in an above quote you railed against anyone else having.

5. This essentially is an expensive piece of decor. Sssnakess already suggested it's what they are good for.

OK...FIRST.. I don't want to be viewed as the anti- conservative reptile owner.

I have and DO conceed reptile rocks are not the way to go..

HOWEVER, I have NOT..... PROBABLY WILL NOT SEE POSITIVE PROOF OF ANIMAL INJURY IN THE LAST 20 YEARS!

Get you..I'm not advocating them, but I just don't think thei're so bad!

BTW: " Sleeping on it. . not only connects "constantly" with most "normal" minds... BUT!!!!! I ONLY SAID HE SLEPT ON IT ... NOT HOW OFTEN!

And Mr.Internet wiseguy....HONESTLY. ..When did you go to your dishwashers website?

WTF... What have you EVER had that NEVER GAVE YOU A PROBLEM,... Soooo....you went on line and RESEARCHED?

If ever there was.....this is a C'MON MAN!!!! Moment.

[Scubadiver59]

I'm not getting into this argument, per se, but I will post a third-hand view: ViperKeeper, that crusty, venerate, "hot" snake keeper extraordinaire, has used them (I'm sure), may use them (I'm not sure) but he never had any snakes die because of using them (according to him). If I can find the video he stated this in, I'll post its link.

Originally Posted by Doug 351

OK...FIRST.. I don't want to be viewed as the anti- conservative reptile owner.

I have and DO conceed reptile rocks are not the way to go..

HOWEVER, I have NOT..... PROBABLY WILL NOT SEE POSITIVE PROOF OF ANIMAL INJURY IN THE LAST 20 YEARS!

Get you..I'm not advocating them, but I just don't think thei're so bad!

BTW: " Sleeping on it. . not only connects "constantly" with most "normal" minds... BUT!!!!! I ONLY SAID HE SLEPT ON IT ... NOT HOW OFTEN!

And Mr.Internet wiseguy....HONESTLY. ..When did you go to your dishwashers website?

WTF... What have you EVER had that NEVER GAVE YOU A PROBLEM,... Soooo....you went on line and RESEARCHED?

If ever there was.....this is a C'MON MAN!!!! Moment.

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by akane

My limited experience with lizards there is definitely no magic number to keep them all. I have crested geckos that would live in the upper levels of the cloud forest of new caledonia and are often kept unheated at room temp with breeding down to 68F and overheat easily so they are not kept over 80F with very rarely a basking spot. If used, relying on supplemented commercial diets has become more common, UV is often fluorescent lighting based instead of producing much heat. Having looked at native lizard species and biggest concentration seeming to be the hotter areas of the continent there are some truly diurnal desert dwellers that have a cool end in the 80s-90s during the day and basking spots over 100F. Many desert lizard species will be visible when snakes have sought shelter. The range is quite huge with lizards.


My captive keeping experience may have only reached it's first year but I wouldn't say all snakes only thermoregulate out of necessity. I see snake care rolled together like they are one species and often based on tropical or exotic species that are too busy avoiding heat or seeing little variation between day and night and I can understand some of the single temp rooms for large pythons and boas that I have seen people setup. They have limited basking and are probably quite content if they can maintain one ideal temp. Snakes are not one species though and I don't think just matching a temp and humidity ideal between species is enough difference in care for their difference in behavior and natural environment. For my North American natives I've had some that I switched from having a basking bulb to consistent heat with a fluorescent for lighting and despite being the same temperature all the time now they still go looking for the light when it comes on to find no increase in temp and return to hiding instead of laying out in the open like they used to. I have a corn that loves a lizard UV basking bulb and seeks it out beyond temps she will seek out from a CHE gradient. I tested the 2nd corn I now have and he also will seek out a basking bulb that is not UV but ignore the 24/7 che when the basking bulb goes off and simply go into shelter to wait for the next day instead.

It seems instinctual by some snakes to bask to the point I might consider it enrichment behavior and it certainly makes them more enjoyable to watch. Really all behaviors developed out of environmental need to survive but to not fulfill those behaviors has been seen more easily in mammals to cause various unhealthy changes in behavior despite removing the need for them. Maybe we can't compare the 2 but we have little research to prove either way so I'll go by what I see. I find my bulls are actually calmer and put on less of their defensive show when they get to go bask on a rock platform or area of warmed open dirt between decor. Contrary to the wild warm snakes being more aggressive than cold but these snakes are comfortable with me around and remain basking without caring what I'm doing compared to when they are actively moving about the cool end of the enclosure or getting protective inside a cool hide. When they aren't lazily basking you are far more likely to get bluffing strikes out of them.

On the other end, which shows species difference, my desert king responds to cooling events. Instead of giving him basking spots he comes out on "rain days" I mimic for the bioactive critters to stay alive or if I run 2 lights so one goes out and cools partially in the evening. His activity is limited to drinking, checking for rodents, and going back to shelter if kept at any one temp even on the low end of the suggested range for their health with no attempt to bask when temps are low but he becomes extremely active for hours even with lights still on if he has a hot and cool period. It is far more interesting to watch him explore all over the entire evening when he is kept warm during the day with a temp drop shortly before lights out than to try to keep him at one temp where he hides, drinks, checks for rodents, hides, and stops to eat quickly on feeding day. In his previous tank I actually didn't see him for a week at a time because he'd use burrowing instead of hides and I provided no "rain days" because it had no bioactive cleanup crew or temp changes so he probably grabbed some water nocturnally and occasionally you'd see his black head meant to blend in sticking out to check things from his burrow. The rodent disappeared off the feeding rock and sheds would appear about the time I'd start threatening to dig him out and I was keeping him cooler than I keep his daytime now. There was just no change between day and night and no other cooling events so instinctually he never came out into the heat during lights on or for long periods even if it wasn't as hot.

I love watching the behaviors they display when you mimic parts of the environment you can and I see no increased stress from doing so or decreased stress just keeping them at what is considered to be the ideal for them across the enclosure 24/7. I am talking about specific species though. I learned I wouldn't do it with a blood python. I'd rather have a fully controlled specific room that does not have a gradient, basking, or cooling because they do not seem to respond with anywhere near the same strength to any of those things except to become reactive at higher temps. They don't seek changing conditions with the same vigor and seem quite content to sit, waiting for something like prey, at a set temp and humidity all the time. It is such different behavior and responses between species evolved in such different environments that I would no longer apply the same type of husbandry because, ignoring enjoyment of behavior displays, it did not even result in equally healthy snakes.

Very interesting information.

I think that when it comes to lizards there are just so many more physiological differences between the various species that it would make sense that a method like this would not work. I think that the difference between any random 5 snake species, for example ball python, a bull snake, a garter snake, a rosy boa and a king snake are much more similar to each other than say a leopard gecko, a bearded dragon, an iguana, a blue tongue skink and a fence lizard if that makes sense.

I've recently moved one of my snakes into a large bioactive enclosure with several inches of substrate (you can see it in the colubrid forum). It only happened 2 days ago and I haven't seen her much although she seems to be switching between the crevices under the background, burrowing and the hide that is behind the wood at the top. I recently discovered after changing the water bowl today that she burrowed up under it a bit which is kind of neat as I was unsure of how she would utilize the extra burrowing room. The terra firma substrate I'm using claims to hold burrows very well so it was nice to see this in action.

Like I said in the first post, I've only adapted it sort of in a middling way. No hot spot, tighter gradient, less emphasis on humidity. If someone goes full bore into it they have to understand the whole concept in it's entirety and have a great measure of control which in individual cages in a house that changes temperature relatively easily from night to day isn't exactly the easiest thing in the world to accomplish.

Before I had the deep substrate and natural setup I had more control via relatively easy, wide spread heat pads set to around 83 just to have enough "umph" to get up through the substrate. The overall degree swing in the terrarium was always within 3-4 degrees from 78-81F ish. If my house gets a little cooler at night then it'll obviously be a little cooler and if the house bumps up to 83 in the summer then they just have to deal with that along with me because unless we're approaching 86+ plus mark in the house I'm not turning on the air conditioner, it's only done that a few times like once when someone burned food and windows had to be opened in the middle of the day, stuff like that. With the lower temp method (this is more important for tropical snakes) you can't really have the obnoxious high humidity that some keepers use, those have to be lower as well or else problems could arise. And really that's my only concern as I have to keep the bugs and plant relatively hydrated.

My female is quite bold and would lay out in the open more and more as feeding day approached (main reason she got the sweet home), my male would hide away occasionally peaking his head out to see what's going on, it being a special occasion for him to venture out and show off his good looks. The snakes I've kept with hot spots, whether on natural substrate (never the bioactive super thick stuff) paper, plain, decorated, whatever. I honestly didn't see them often and I had WAY more time to watch them back then than I do now. With these snakes I've actually noticed personalities, I've noticed how, in particular my female is incredibly aware of what's going on out side the glass, always having an eye on me hoping for food, watching me fold laundry, whatever.

I've had to adapt with this new bioactive thing, setting up a CHE with a very wide dome that I hope will help spread the heat out a bit over a larger surface area similar to my idea of the large surface area heat pad. The cage is massive compared to her previous digs, her and Ricky were stuck in 10 gallons (I know, I know I didn't like it either but it took me longer to gather everything and finish it as mid project I had a layoff so progress was behind schedule). There are WAY more places to hide in this large enclosure than there was in the old cage, essentially the entire substrate is a hide now lol. I am curious to see if she takes advantage of the heat from above when it cools down and it's on more.

She's only been in there a few days and like all snakes she's going through an acclimation period so I'm not making any rash judgments that she's gonna stop coming out to show off for good. The way I kept my temperatures in the past didn't seem to bother her at all. And because the two snakes are the same same species, were previously being kept in the exact same way I'm chalking Ricky's cautious behavior up to personality difference.

She's a savage feeder, I don't think I'm gonna need any sort of feeding rock. I think when she smells that first mouse in a few days that she'll come flying out of wherever she happens to be hiding to see what's going on. I hope... lol.

I'm gonna monitor her behavior over the coming weeks and report back on it in the colubrid section either way.

I appreciate you sharing your experiences here it's quite interesting the differences you saw with your snakes in regards to hot spots. If you have any advice for the bioactive setup in general I'd appreciate any you have down in my thread about my setup. I've been reading and studying about it for years but as we all know, knowing how something should be and making it that way can be two entirely different things.

[bigsnakegirl785]

So I keep seeing it mentioned that x reptile keeps its body core temperature within a certain range, so my question is: can a reptile maintain that range when kept at one temperature? Reptiles may not make heat to the extent we do, but they do create their own body heat to a certain degree, especially right after eating. Just because you're maintaining temperatures at what has been observed as the average core temperature, doesn't mean you're keeping your animals' core temperatures within the appropriate range.

[RAD House]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

So I keep seeing it mentioned that x reptile keeps its body core temperature within a certain range, so my question is: can a reptile maintain that range when kept at one temperature? Reptiles may not make heat to the extent we do, but they do create their own body heat to a certain degree, especially right after eating. Just because you're maintaining temperatures at what has been observed as the average core temperature, doesn't mean you're keeping your animals' core temperatures within the appropriate range.

I think they were saying that reptiles keep their core temps at a certain temp, around 80 degrees if i remember correctly, not a range. Yes keeping an animal in ambient temperatures at this temp will mean the core temp will be similar is an exothermic animal. Any heat they produce themselves is more due to muscle movement, is a waste of energy, and fairly minimal.

[Doug 351]

Well, y'all can thank me now. If I hadn't stirred the pot, this would have died a very boring thread.

And I would like to thank all the qualified, articulate members who have responded. This thread should be very helpful to anyone who views it.

I still ain't skeered of my heat rock!!!!

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

I think they were saying that reptiles keep their core temps at a certain temp, around 80 degrees if i remember correctly, not a range. Yes keeping an animal in ambient temperatures at this temp will mean the core temp will be similar is an exothermic animal. Any heat they produce themselves is more due to muscle movement, is a waste of energy, and fairly minimal.

After eating, their body temp can rise by several degrees, this is why many times a snake will avoid the heat right after eating. I wouldn't call that minimal. (If you've ever picked up a freshly-fed snake, you'll find their belly where the bulge is will feel quite a lot warmer than the rest of their body.)

[Scubadiver59]

The same thing happens to me when I eat...would you like to feel my belly too?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea7XIUuj7ag

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

After eating, their body temp can rise by several degrees, this is why many times a snake will avoid the heat right after eating. I wouldn't call that minimal. (If you've ever picked up a freshly-fed snake, you'll find their belly where the bulge is will feel quite a lot warmer than the rest of their body.)

[RAD House]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

After eating, their body temp can rise by several degrees, this is why many times a snake will avoid the heat right after eating. I wouldn't call that minimal. (If you've ever picked up a freshly-fed snake, you'll find their belly where the bulge is will feel quite a lot warmer than the rest of their body.)

That would suggest they are endothermic, which goes against everything I know about reptiles. I would like to see where you read about that.