Eco earth

[Azrt]

Sorry for the crazy post..havent had snakes in so long I feel like a rookie

I have a male burm being shipped and arriving tomorrow..I will be getting an AP style cage very soon but until then will be in a 20 gal long. To maintain or help with humidity, can I use eco earth as a bedding? or keep on paper towels and mist. When they are big I never used bedding

[dannybgoode]

Opions will vary re bedding for large adult snakes. All my snakes regardless of size will get a naturalistic substrate but I know others just use newspaper or whatever. You do really need to use something to absorb the urine and other mess and to make cleansing easier.

I find paper towel a pain even in a small quarantine tub as it's useless at holding moisture and maintaining humidity. Eco earth would be just fine although as with everything I'd mix other stuff into it depending on species being kept.

I would start it off on plain white paper towel though whilst in quarantine as it makes spotting issues with faeces, possible mites etc easier.

[TRD]

Should be fine with Eco Earth. Maybe mix in something like Reptile (fir)Bark/Orchid Bark to provide some structure. Paper towels are designed to suck up humidity, and if wet, retain it. Will be smelly, rotting, and daily replacement. Wouldn't do that.

[Azrt]

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

Opions will vary re bedding for large adult snakes. All my snakes regardless of size will get a naturalistic substrate but I know others just use newspaper or whatever. You do really need to use something to absorb the urine and other mess and to make cleansing easier.

I find paper towel a pain even in a small quarantine tub as it's useless at holding moisture and maintaining humidity. Eco earth would be just fine although as with everything I'd mix other stuff into it depending on species being kept.

I would start it off on plain white paper towel though whilst in quarantine as it makes spotting issues with faeces, possible mites etc easier.

I always start on paper towels for at least the first week or so mainly to look for mites and other issues then switch to a bedding.


Ive had the eco earth outside in an open tub so I may need to grab a new cube and not use that one.

thanks everyone

[jjhill001]

I hate eco earth unless it's mixed with something else. It's way to dusty and when it's moist just sticks to everything. I like the jungle litter cypress mulch, its not really environmentally friendly though so I've been looking for an alternative but I'm gonna look for something with those qualities.

[dannybgoode]

I agree - I rarely use it on its own but its great to mix in with other stuff at time. If I am using eco earth (and it is generally for jungle / tropical species when I do) I use a brick mixed with topsoil and orchid bark with at least 60% topsoil. Perhaps a smidge of sphagnum moss as well

For temperate species I use topsoil only perhaps with a very small amount of sand and sometimes gravel and for arid species sand / soil with at least 50% sand and again maybe some fine gravel.

All are then 'topped' with leaf little, perhaps some slate chips, loose sand, twigs and small branches etc - again depending on the environment I am trying to recreate and the species being kept.

[akane]

I mixed 50/50 with bagged topsoil and so far the result isn't bad but it wasn't for a big snake. My snakes have at least 60% top soil. Maybe a little sand depending how "gooey" the topsoil is when wet. Local stuff since I do bioactive and can dig it bugs and all out of my yard is a sponge and makes a mud slick. Some of the bagged is probably local mixed with some other already but still needs increased drainage. I prefer a composted plant matter to something like eco earth and love a local bought palm compost but if you aren't cleaning it then it's not cost effective compared to replacing coco fiber like eco earth periodically. The palm compost just holds the perfect moisture for so long and instantly fixes drainage while being easy to dig for those that do.

Not to hijack but as a possibly cheaper option; does anyone know a reason not to use garden coco fiber? It comes in larger sizes for cheaper and you can get "all natural" well rinsed or "aged" coco fiber just to remove salts and potassium that does not seem altered in any other way. It's hard to say exactly which one expands to what amount since they don't use the same measurements so comparison of cost is hard but there are a lot of large (11lbs was labelled a medium) bricks of it for gardens that might be more cost effective than buying lots of eco earth. I'm actually using the exo terra version but I know some people dislike the brand for being inferior quality in everything. Amazon has both in bulk packs and with prime I get free 2 day shipping on 3 or 9 bricks at a time so it's not bad but I came across the garden bricks looking for other materials.
A little more expensive than finer substrate sold for reptiles but I liked this for the longer fibers that would eliminate the dust part and keep things from compacting. It might work better on it's own too than fine coco fiber does. Again though it's not reptile specific so some extra consideration to safety is always required. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B015P0UPL8...d=51ZTBCEY021U

[dannybgoode]

I use garden coco fibre all the time. Same stuff but without the made for reptile tax slapped on...

[akane]

Yeah, throw a reptile label on it and the price at least doubles most of the time.

[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by akane

Yeah, throw a reptile label on it and the price at least doubles most of the time.

You should see what happens when you put a bonsai label on a pair of scissors!

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

You should see what happens when you put a bonsai label on a pair of scissors!

Do you do bonzai danny? I've been watching a youtuber who does it and have considered getting into it myself. Could you PM me some tips?

Also to the OP, if it's gonna be a large snake you're gonna have some challenges that aren't really present in other species if you're gonna want to use a naturalistic substrate.

I've never had to tackle the challenge of using a natural substrate with a species as strong and large as a burmese python.

If it were me and I was dead set on a naturalistic vivarium for a snake that large there would be no other choice but to go bioactive. I'm not cleaning out 40lbs of wood chips every month. You'd need the right mix (it would have to be able to be humid without turning into a mud pie) and you'd need a veritable army of microfauna to make it work.

You'd need enough depth of substrate to handle the weight and typical methods of a draining layer might not work (the egg crate method for example would break pretty easily with that large of an animal I'd think). I don't know if they burrow but they know that the pythons are using gopher tortoise burrows in the wild to expand their range and wait out the dry season in Florida so if the snake is just flinging crap all over it might not work at all.

I would personally use topsoil, cocoa fiber, eco earth, sphagnum moss, sand, gravel, activated charcoal, shredded up leaves, maybe some other stuff as well, probably combine that with a commercial bioactive substrate as well. I'd use every kind of microfauna available, earth worms, springtails, multiple isopods. Then every time you upgrade the cage basically just dump the old substrate in with the new substrate so your populations can just spread like that.

The whole floor would be covered in various leaves. It would be a massive undertaking and quite frankly it might fail miserably leaving me using paper. Either way I hope you have great luck in this endeavor.

[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by jjhill001

Do you do bonzai danny? I've been watching a youtuber who does it and have considered getting into it myself. Could you PM me some tips?

Also to the OP, if it's gonna be a large snake you're gonna have some challenges that aren't really present in other species if you're gonna want to use a naturalistic substrate.

I've never had to tackle the challenge of using a natural substrate with a species as strong and large as a burmese python.

If it were me and I was dead set on a naturalistic vivarium for a snake that large there would be no other choice but to go bioactive. I'm not cleaning out 40lbs of wood chips every month. You'd need the right mix (it would have to be able to be humid without turning into a mud pie) and you'd need a veritable army of microfauna to make it work.

You'd need enough depth of substrate to handle the weight and typical methods of a draining layer might not work (the egg crate method for example would break pretty easily with that large of an animal I'd think). I don't know if they burrow but they know that the pythons are using gopher tortoise burrows in the wild to expand their range and wait out the dry season in Florida so if the snake is just flinging crap all over it might not work at all.

I would personally use topsoil, cocoa fiber, eco earth, sphagnum moss, sand, gravel, activated charcoal, shredded up leaves, maybe some other stuff as well, probably combine that with a commercial bioactive substrate as well. I'd use every kind of microfauna available, earth worms, springtails, multiple isopods. Then every time you upgrade the cage basically just dump the old substrate in with the new substrate so your populations can just spread like that.

The whole floor would be covered in various leaves. It would be a massive undertaking and quite frankly it might fail miserably leaving me using paper. Either way I hope you have great luck in this endeavor.

I'll be giving it a go with the scrubs and olives! Yes it'll be work but so worth it

[akane]

I'm doing some 60x30" and 72x30" enclosures fully bioactive and hopefully planted eventually. I wouldn't say egg crate is the standard if it once was. Most use hydroballs and a barrier which I used weed cloth. However, I do not find it the easiest to setup, the most cost effective, or the most durable. Partially crushed volcanic rock wasn't bad for still less weight with more durability but I actually use granite gravel in the form of poultry grit. It doesn't even require a substrate separator because it's just dense enough to keep soil out while still having water gaps so dump it in, cover it in substrate, and there you go. Really cheap, non-digging, well draining, never breaking down, and forever separate drainage layer. The problem I ran into is I wanted to stack the enclosures and wow does the weight add up fast when I ran gravel and soil through a substrate calculator. I was looking at 800lbs an enclosure to do everything I wanted the way I wanted. Really though the cleanup crew does not require that thick of substrate to function and beetles can be kept in all humidity to completely dry desert with minimal ability to burrow if you just provide things like root vegetable slices for moisture. The cuc just needs a hiding spot and a couple inches to travel through. I cut things down to 2" drainage and I was going to go 3 but someone else said they put their larger snakes on 4" soil mix most successfully. That brings weight down by at least half per enclosure and no more than putting a 40g aquarium each on that area of floor with a larger footprint than any 40gallon aquarium of water. Lighter material can be used to fluff up the top more but you don't want anything too thick that will break up and/or pack down with travel to seal off your base soil mix and all materials the cuc can eat/destroy will add soil over time. Beetles also don't need that extra top dressing either. If they don't have lizards to eat them they don't care too much about cover except the larvae and pupating but that still only takes a couple inches of material to burrow. They aren't ideal everywhere and not always appealing to see but it makes them more versatile than your standard isopods and springtails.

Sometimes rather than maintain a bioactive tank and still avoid cleaning out substrate I just add mealworms and let them multiple on what's there until they die out. You will have a single beetle body left when they have run out of mates and eaten the other dead beetles plus cleaned all waste. Wait for snake poop and dump in another container. No drainage layer, no added moisture, no in between feeding the cuc, no cultures to maintain since replacements are cheap and plentiful, and nothing but about 2" of my 60% sand mix for my desert tanks or 3" of mostly plant compost in the temporary home of the baby sumatran python for now. Maybe not a really long term solution but transitioning things it works great and you can maintain just mealworms/darkling beetles or a larger variety of beetle species easily long term with like I said some root vegetable slices in any substrate plus you'll need to feed them between snake poop to keep the population up.

[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by akane

I'm doing some 60x30" and 72x30" enclosures fully bioactive and hopefully planted eventually. I wouldn't say egg crate is the standard if it once was. Most use hydroballs and a barrier which I used weed cloth. However, I do not find it the easiest to setup, the most cost effective, or the most durable. Partially crushed volcanic rock wasn't bad for still less weight with more durability but I actually use granite gravel in the form of poultry grit. It doesn't even require a substrate separator because it's just dense enough to keep soil out while still having water gaps so dump it in, cover it in substrate, and there you go. Really cheap, non-digging, well draining, never breaking down, and forever separate drainage layer. The problem I ran into is I wanted to stack the enclosures and wow does the weight add up fast when I ran gravel and soil through a substrate calculator. I was looking at 800lbs an enclosure to do everything I wanted the way I wanted. Really though the cleanup crew does not require that thick of substrate to function and beetles can be kept in all humidity to completely dry desert with minimal ability to burrow if you just provide things like root vegetable slices for moisture. The cuc just needs a hiding spot and a couple inches to travel through. I cut things down to 2" drainage and I was going to go 3 but someone else said they put their larger snakes on 4" soil mix most successfully. That brings weight down by at least half per enclosure and no more than putting a 40g aquarium each on that area of floor with a larger footprint than any 40gallon aquarium of water. Lighter material can be used to fluff up the top more but you don't want anything too thick that will break up and/or pack down with travel to seal off your base soil mix and all materials the cuc can eat/destroy will add soil over time. Beetles also don't need that extra top dressing either. If they don't have lizards to eat them they don't care too much about cover except the larvae and pupating but that still only takes a couple inches of material to burrow. They aren't ideal everywhere and not always appealing to see but it makes them more versatile than your standard isopods and springtails.

Sometimes rather than maintain a bioactive tank and still avoid cleaning out substrate I just add mealworms and let them multiple on what's there until they die out. You will have a single beetle body left when they have run out of mates and eaten the other dead beetles plus cleaned all waste. Wait for snake poop and dump in another container. No drainage layer, no added moisture, no in between feeding the cuc, no cultures to maintain since replacements are cheap and plentiful, and nothing but about 2" of my 60% sand mix for my desert tanks or 3" of mostly plant compost in the temporary home of the baby sumatran python for now. Maybe not a really long term solution but transitioning things it works great and you can maintain just mealworms/darkling beetles or a larger variety of beetle species easily long term with like I said some root vegetable slices in any substrate plus you'll need to feed them between snake poop to keep the population up.

I use the dumping the mealworms in and see what happens technique even on smaller enclosures!

Yes the weight is a consideration but as I'm in the basement floor strength isn't one of them however structural integrity of the vivs is. When I come to build the large vivs its something I'll be taking serious consideration about.