Resuced Hog island boa and a few questions

[Minkness]

He looks like my Treasure!

Also, what Aaron said.

[acidonangles]

Do you guys have recomdations for hydrometer and thermometers. Also if I get a pvc enclosure would a radiant heat panel work best? And would a 4x2 pvc work?

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Incorrect. There are racks big enough for boas. Especially a boa that is stunted like this one, it will most likely not obtain average adult size.

imho no. Boas are not suited to racks, and even the Iris Christmas tree totes are too thin in width and too short in height to be proper boa enclosures.

Also, this boa is not stunted. 4'-5' is perfectly reasonable for a 3 year old boa, a boa doesn't have to reach 6' by its 3rd birthday to not be stunted. Even a year older and it still would be a good size for its age, if a bit small if it's 4' and not 5'.

(It could be underfed and underweight, but it's not stunted at all.)

Also, why no larger than a 4'x2'? If OP wants to offer something larger they can. I put my boa in his 6'x2'x3' when he was 5'-5.5', he did fine in it. I had my 3.5' ball python in one of equal dimensions, he went into it with feeding problems and within a few months he began eating. Before I was kicked out, then I got to start all over again. :/

If you're buying into the "snakes stress out in big enclosures" myth it's 100% not true, it's open spaces not big enclosures that stress them out.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

imho no. Boas are not suited to racks, and even the Iris Christmas tree totes are too thin in width and too short in height to be proper boa enclosures.

Incorrect. I've seen breeders with 4 x 18 size bins.

Also, this boa is not stunted. 4'-5' is perfectly reasonable for a 3 year old boa, a boa doesn't have to reach 6' by its 3rd birthday to not be stunted. Even a year older and it still would be a good size for its age, if a bit small if it's 4' and not 5'.

I'd say it is. Underfed/underweight is also a type of stunting. If given a proper diet this snake would be bigger and longer. Therefore it's okay to assume it's stunted.

Also, why no larger than a 4'x2'? If OP wants to offer something larger they can. I put my boa in his 6'x2'x3' when he was 5'-5.5', he did fine in it. I had my 3.5' ball python in one of equal dimensions, he went into it with feeding problems and within a few months he began eating. Before I was kicked out, then I got to start all over again. :/

If you're buying into the "snakes stress out in big enclosures" myth it's 100% not true, it's open spaces not big enclosures that stress them out.

Actually it has nothing to do with that myth. It's the fact this is a strange snake in a brand new setting. It hasn't had a proper enclosure in forever. It's MUCH easier to get this snake stabilized and the husbandry key on a smaller enclosure. THEN worry about upsizing.

I know you have a few animals that things work for them. Cool, it works for you and them. However it's a small sample size to give blanket advice as you do. In this scenario things should be handled a little differently.

[franks]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I'd say it is. Underfed/underweight is also a type of stunting. If given a proper diet this snake would be bigger and longer. Therefore it's okay to assume it's stunted.
.

To grow a snake to its "capacity" is unhealthy. I do not agree with the notion that snakes need to be regimentally fed max sized prey items. All of the leading breeders in our hobby started realizing this 5 years ago. The sooner we catch on the sooner we can start keeping animals into their actual life expectancies. If we are talking boas specifically, check out Vin Russo. Dr. Boback studies boa diet and has alot to say on the subject as well.

I agree with Aaron that it benefits new snakes (and hatchlings) to be acclimated in a tub. I do not even use substrate until I have a few months of feedings and stools documented. I am not saying its wrong, personally I just find it easier and perfectly controlled.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Incorrect. I've seen breeders with 4 x 18 size bins.



I'd say it is. Underfed/underweight is also a type of stunting. If given a proper diet this snake would be bigger and longer. Therefore it's okay to assume it's stunted.





Actually it has nothing to do with that myth. It's the fact this is a strange snake in a brand new setting. It hasn't had a proper enclosure in forever. It's MUCH easier to get this snake stabilized and the husbandry key on a smaller enclosure. THEN worry about upsizing.

I know you have a few animals that things work for them. Cool, it works for you and them. However it's a small sample size to give blanket advice as you do. In this scenario things should be handled a little differently.

Christmas tree totes are 6' and something like 1' wide. Still not enough imo. 12"-18" is not enough to accommodate the girth of an 8' boa. It needs to be no less than 2' wide. The height is also barely above 1'. Imo they should be offered no less than 2' of height, but 18" is absolute smallest limit.

A snake can be underweight without being stunted, as long as they aren't overly underweight. A 6' boa would be considered oversized for the age the snake is, so if it was being fed a "proper diet" and was any larger than it is now, it would be oversized. It is a perfect length for its age.

It's possible it was overfed the first year or two of its life and then underfed, which could account for it being normal size but underweight. Honestly, the snake doesn't look underweight to me, though. Maybe a bit dehydrated, but not underweight and not undersized.

Yes the new situation definitely makes sense, in general though there's normally not a problem with it. While the boa settles in, it's fine to put it in something smaller, it's not like at 4'-5' boa a 4'x2' is a necessity anyways, just didn't want OP to think they could never upgrade the snake.

(Also I find a top-opening enclosure rather cumbersome for working with a 6'-8' boa that's going to weigh 8-30 lbs.)

[trailblazer295]

My male bci is 41" 564g at 1.5yrs old following a 1 appropriately sized prey item every 7 days. Now at 18 to 36 months he'll be fed every 14 to 21 days. Then 3-4 weeks after that.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by franks

To grow a snake to its "capacity" is unhealthy. I do not agree with the notion that snakes need to be regimentally fed max sized prey items. All of the leading breeders in our hobby started realizing this 5 years ago. The sooner we catch on the sooner we can start keeping animals into their actual life expectancies. If we are talking boas specifically, check out Vin Russo. Dr. Boback studies boa diet and has alot to say on the subject as well.....

I 100% agree with this. I didn't mean to indicate that I am "for" growing snakes to capacity. I meant a more healthy regiment than the one this snake has had to date.

I have believed for some time that most snakes have been overfed. It's why I stick to a simple rule set for my animals and they all receive smaller meals compared to what others feed their snakes.

It's a small sample size but I've been growing up my ball pythons slower than normal. Some obtain 4 - 5 in length and 2500+ grams. Some are smaller around the 3 - 4 foot mark and weigh 1600 - 1900 grams. Yet they all produce eggs consistently with zero slugs over the past 3 years. I think that indicates mature and healthy female snakes.

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

Christmas tree totes are 6' and something like 1' wide. Still not enough imo. 12"-18" is not enough to accommodate the girth of an 8' boa. It needs to be no less than 2' wide. The height is also barely above 1'. Imo they should be offered no less than 2' of height, but 18" is absolute smallest limit.

Why is everything so black and white for you? Who said anything about an 8' boa being stuck in a tub? You're using extremes to prove your point. Further, you're assuming I am making a blanket statement. My statement is simply that some boas can fit into some rack systems quite well.

A snake can be underweight without being stunted, as long as they aren't overly underweight. A 6' boa would be considered oversized for the age the snake is, so if it was being fed a "proper diet" and was any larger than it is now, it would be oversized. It is a perfect length for its age.

Where do you get your info? Length has far less to do with overall health than anything else. Snakes range in length that it's difficult to say "well at such and such length this snake is healthy but 5 inches shorter and it's unhealthy."

I've learned a long time ago that body shape/weight are far more of an indicator of health than length is.

Yes the new situation definitely makes sense, in general though there's normally not a problem with it. While the boa settles in, it's fine to put it in something smaller, it's not like at 4'-5' boa a 4'x2' is a necessity anyways, just didn't want OP to think they could never upgrade the snake.

(Also I find a top-opening enclosure rather cumbersome for working with a 6'-8' boa that's going to weigh 8-30 lbs.)

I don't think the OP thought they couldn't upgrade. Again, nothing is black and white.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by trailblazer295

My male bci is 41" 564g at 1.5yrs old following a 1 appropriately sized prey item every 7 days. Now at 18 to 36 months he'll be fed every 14 to 21 days. Then 3-4 weeks after that.

Exactly! Length has far less of an indicator of health than anything. That's nearly 4 feet already at under two years of age for a male!

The snake is in great health and will fill out it's body over the next few years.

[Minkness]

Just a quick comment on Aaron's statement about length of snake vs health of snake.

To me, this would be like saying short peopl are unhealthy because they don't get the same height as taller people. But, like Aron stated, 2 short people can be different in health if one is extremely over/under weight while the other is at a 'bealthy' weight.

Now, I know snakes aren't like peopls. But it's the same general concept.

[Andy_G]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I 100% agree with this. I didn't mean to indicate that I am "for" growing snakes to capacity. I meant a more healthy regiment than the one this snake has had to date.

I have believed for some time that most snakes have been overfed. It's why I stick to a simple rule set for my animals and they all receive smaller meals compared to what others feed their snakes.

It's a small sample size but I've been growing up my ball pythons slower than normal. Some obtain 4 - 5 in length and 2500+ grams. Some are smaller around the 3 - 4 foot mark and weigh 1600 - 1900 grams. Yet they all produce eggs consistently with zero slugs over the past 3 years. I think that indicates mature and healthy female snakes.




Why is everything so black and white for you? Who said anything about an 8' boa being stuck in a tub? You're using extremes to prove your point. Further, you're assuming I am making a blanket statement. My statement is simply that some boas can fit into some rack systems quite well.



Where do you get your info? Length has far less to do with overall health than anything else. Snakes range in length that it's difficult to say "well at such and such length this snake is healthy but 5 inches shorter and it's unhealthy."

I've learned a long time ago that body shape/weight are far more of an indicator of health than length is.




I don't think the OP thought they couldn't upgrade. Again, nothing is black and white.

Beat me to it.

[acidonangles]

Didn't think this was gonna start a mini argument ����

[Minkness]

No one ever does lol.

Not your fault though. =)

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Why is everything so black and white for you? Who said anything about an 8' boa being stuck in a tub? You're using extremes to prove your point. Further, you're assuming I am making a blanket statement. My statement is simply that some boas can fit into some rack systems quite well.

Where do you get your info? Length has far less to do with overall health than anything else. Snakes range in length that it's difficult to say "well at such and such length this snake is healthy but 5 inches shorter and it's unhealthy."

I've learned a long time ago that body shape/weight are far more of an indicator of health than length is.

I don't think the OP thought they couldn't upgrade. Again, nothing is black and white.

People do stick 8' boas in tubs, all the time. I don't really feel a boa over 5' should be kept in a tub, but that's just me. Other people can keep them in one longer if they wish, but a full grown boa (which is usually over 6') isn't suitable for a rack or tub unless that boa is of a dwarf variety offered ample height.

I said nothing of length indicating health, just that certain lengths are average for certain ages. Despite an individual's growth rate, you are not going to get a boa to 6' by its 3rd birthday without overfeeding it in some capacity. That said, being a bit under or oversized is fine, so long as the snake is not being overfed as they do grow at their own pace.

And that's exactly what I'm saying. Not only is the boa of an average size for its age, it also appears to be in mostly good health and good body tone.

[acidonangles]

More body pics. Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

And he ate. I gave him a large adult mouse and will be ordering some rats (not sure what size yet) later this week. Humidity has been around 70.