Problem in our industry

[DLLNP]

I was going to post this as a reply to another thread but then realized I was typing away on a tangent that might make a decent discussion. The topic of this discussion is the amount of herps we see that are kept in terrible conditions due to poor husbandry, etc.

This is a problem that arches across the entire industry. I would be willing to bet that the percentage of herps in poor care is higher than most other pet industries (and there are a lot of terrible cat, dog, etc owners out there!)

There are people in the world, like all of us here that are incredibly passionate about reptiles. People like us are not looking for a "pet" as much as we are looking for a complex project that brings along the beauty of the natural world with it. I think we all get enjoyment out of replicating our animal's natural environment through perfect husbandry, and enjoy the challenge of doing so.

THEN... there are people who want pets... they are not interested in cracking a book to see what the natural history of their animal is or even looking at a basic care sheet sometimes. They want a new pet and that is it. They will feed it, water it and feel like they have done their job because they are not looking for that "complex project" that we all tackle everyday.

Reptiles have two characteristics that make them subject to a high percentage of poor care: 1) they general have more complicated husbandry than your average pet and 2) most have a long lifespan (even when kept in poor conditions). Just look at the classifieds in your local area... I am sure they are similar to mine: full of animals 2-5 years old (with lifespans well over 20+ yrs) that are no longer wanted. It happens all the time.

Is this a problem that can be fixed? Or will it always plague the reptile community? It is my opinion that breeders need to be responsible for the animals they sell by making sure they are headed to a good home.... I think most breeders actually do this all the time. Some definitely don't (the ones producing 1000's of animals per year don't have time to do that) and the local pet stores obviously don't do that either. Share you thoughts!

Dillon

[SWDK]

I think it's a problem that will not go away any time soon. The problem is it's easy to get reptiles and most common ones are cheap in pet stores. People don't seem to educate themselves on the purchase first and act on impulse a lot. The also don't see reptile as the "family pet" like a dog or cat.

[DLLNP]

Yes exactly... I guess another strike against many species is the mass amount of offspring they produce... I'm sure it is difficult for a breeder to ensure all 30 boa babies he produced go to a proper home for example.

I also think morphs play an unfortunate role in this whole thing. Don't get me wrong I love morphs as well as the puzzle that comes with playing with genetics, but it causes the over production of unwanted animals sometimes I think.

[macandchz]

i think a lot of it is because people think of reptiles as a novelty. "little johnny wants a snake," isn't that cute? then the salesperson at petco or wherever convinces mom or dad that there is little or no work dealing with a reptile. i've been at pet stores and actually took mom aside and explained some of the care that is needed. and where is little johnny? he's already lost interest in the snake of his dreams and is now tormenting the ferrets. sales people need to be more informative and parents need to research just what it takes to raise a reptile. a lot of adults aren't capable of raising one !

[Sublimeballs]

It all starts at the pet stores. The employees dont know anything about proper care. The amount of terrible advice I've heard at pet stores would astound most people. Ive had to convince a woman not to buy her young son an anaconda.....the pet store was glad to sell a female green to someone under 12.

[REM955]

I suppose it depends where incentive lies.
On one side, you have those more interested in profit. They make these outrageous sells to make a buck and that results in poor care and animals in shelters, like two sibling SD retics at one near me.
On the other in the minority, you have stores that care about the animal and its well being. I know one of these stores. Not only has their vet said good things about them, I saw them turn down a sale because the customer wanted to try a cheap alternative or something for a bearded dragon. I should do a post for them. Lot of cool animals they have as personal pets.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by DLLNP

I was going to post this as a reply to another thread but then realized I was typing away on a tangent that might make a decent discussion. The topic of this discussion is the amount of herps we see that are kept in terrible conditions due to poor husbandry, etc.

This is a problem that arches across the entire industry. I would be willing to bet that the percentage of herps in poor care is higher than most other pet industries (and there are a lot of terrible cat, dog, etc owners out there!)

There are people in the world, like all of us here that are incredibly passionate about reptiles. People like us are not looking for a "pet" as much as we are looking for a complex project that brings along the beauty of the natural world with it. I think we all get enjoyment out of replicating our animal's natural environment through perfect husbandry, and enjoy the challenge of doing so.

THEN... there are people who want pets... they are not interested in cracking a book to see what the natural history of their animal is or even looking at a basic care sheet sometimes. They want a new pet and that is it. They will feed it, water it and feel like they have done their job because they are not looking for that "complex project" that we all tackle everyday.

Reptiles have two characteristics that make them subject to a high percentage of poor care: 1) they general have more complicated husbandry than your average pet and 2) most have a long lifespan (even when kept in poor conditions). Just look at the classifieds in your local area... I am sure they are similar to mine: full of animals 2-5 years old (with lifespans well over 20+ yrs) that are no longer wanted. It happens all the time.

Is this a problem that can be fixed? Or will it always plague the reptile community? It is my opinion that breeders need to be responsible for the animals they sell by making sure they are headed to a good home.... I think most breeders actually do this all the time. Some definitely don't (the ones producing 1000's of animals per year don't have time to do that) and the local pet stores obviously don't do that either. Share you thoughts!

Dillon

The bold is tougher than you think it is.

I sell snakes to a good home and then something happens and they put the animal up for sale, move away to school 5 years later or their life changes. How can I predict that? I can't. No one can.

All those people with 2 - 5 year old reptiles started out as good homes MOST of the time. They meant well and then something happened. The sad part is people easily remove reptiles when something small in their life changes.

[franks]

Originally Posted by DLLNP

There are people in the world, like all of us here that are incredibly passionate about reptiles. People like us are not looking for a "pet" as much as we are looking for a complex project that brings along the beauty of the natural world with it. I think we all get enjoyment out of replicating our animal's natural environment through perfect husbandry, and enjoy the challenge of doing so.
Dillon

Hey. Some good points. Sad but true. I actually think the problem is that the majority of keepers do not care or attempt to replicate their animal's natural environment. My opinion is not a popular one, I am sure, so let me start with the disclaimer that I am not blaming the breeders, but their followers. I think the problem is the rack system. The fact is that our hobby is driven by the breeders of snakes more than it is by the scientists that spend time in the jungles and islands studying them. I do not see this as the breeders fault. Matter of factly, they are the most experienced people in the world at keeping their specific breeds alivei n captivity. The problem is that their way of keeping translates down to the hobbyists and wanna be keepers and results in snakes being kept in sterilite boxes, not vivariums. Even the keepers that use fishtanks tend to keep their animals in small enclosures. I think alot is lost when you cannot actually watch your animal interact with its environment without running over his own tail. My 2 cents. I hope its coherent, I have a two year old and his paw patrol pups hanging off of me.

[franks]

Also, Dillon, couldn't agree more regarding the 2-5 year old snakes in this hobby.

[trailblazer295]

There will be pet abuse forever, there is child abuse still. That said animals that can't vocalize like reptiles, fish and other tank living animals suffer the worst of it. A dog can live being given food and water, would it be healthy not being walked enough no, can it live without being socialized yes but won't be happy but will still look the same. Basically the same with cats. You can feed crap food and ignore them but they'll live.

Most tank animals fish, reptiles etc require more then just food and water. Filtration, heating, UVA/UVB etc. Like you mentioned most people don't do any research on there own and most stores don't do anything to screen customers. If you have the cash then they will sell it. Worse then that is employees that give the wrong information.

Sadly this won't ever go away, cheaper species will always suffer from poor care. More expensive will be less abused because of the cost.

[pet_snake_78]

I only see very common animals for adoption really. There are way too many ball pythons, boas, and corn snakes. For this reason, I do not produce any of those species (save the dwarf boas). However, I see 3-4 times more dogs and cats up for adoption than reptiles, so at least in my area, reptiles are still a minority of the unwanted animals. I don't know of any cure. In my part, I produce animals that are in more demand and since people can always sell them, I doubt you'd likely see many end up being given away.

If someone is really passionate, you can give reptile talks at schools, libraries, nature centers, get out there where you can and educate people on proper care. No one has ever changed anything on the Internet though, real change happens out in the public so I would encourage as many as willing to get out there and try.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

The bold is tougher than you think it is.

I sell snakes to a good home and then something happens and they put the animal up for sale, move away to school 5 years later or their life changes. How can I predict that? I can't. No one can.

All those people with 2 - 5 year old reptiles started out as good homes MOST of the time. They meant well and then something happened. The sad part is people easily remove reptiles when something small in their life changes.

Yup. Beyond asking them questions and hoping they're being honest, and trying to encourage them to return their animals to us if anything changes, there's not much we can do.

I personally enjoy my snakes more than any other pet I've ever had. I'd easily give up a cat or a dog before I'd give up one of my snakes.

Poor husbandry and lack of research is a major falling point for any pet owner, I've had people basically have hernias on me when I told them they should be doing a couple months' of research and preferably test-running a set up before getting a snake (if it's their first snake at least). Apparently they thought a week's worth of research was all they needed. Unfortunately, some snakes require more intricate care, and just because a snake is surviving in the set up you put together in 30 minutes during a shopping spree at PetSmart doesn't mean you'll keep that snake going in the long run, and just listening to pet shop advice or reading care sheets doesn't mean you'll even hit everything in a basic set up. Care sheets don't go in depth, they don't tell you HOW to do anything, just what you should be aiming for, and I'd never personally trust a pet shop's advice without prior knowledge or research later.

People are lazy, self-centered, and proud. They don't want to do the work required to gain the knowledge needed to care for their pets, and when their poor husbandry is called into question they get defensive and ignore more knowledgeable keepers.

That said, I think it's a problem to say that you need to replicate their natural environment for them to be healthy. You can keep a snake healthy and content in a non-natural set up so long as it has enough space and a proper environment. A reptile couldn't care less if the hide they're in is cardboard or a sculpted foam insert designed to look like a rock, or an actual rock. They don't care if the space provided is enclosed by wood or plastic, seriously, there is no difference at all between a tub of the proper size and a viv of the proper size. Keeping snakes in racks isn't a problem of not providing a naturalistic enclosure, but of those keepers putting economy and space ahead of the needs of the snake.

[DLLNP]

When I said replicating "natural environments through perfect husbandry" I probably should have been more clear. By "perfect husbandry" I mean the way we generally use it here i.e. humidity, temperatures, feeding schedule etc. I don't necessarily mean a bio-active viv... I have other animals in bio-active setups and I love them but I am not interested in having a snake in a bio-active viv.. dealing with their waste production is a whole other ball game compared to small lizards!

But having said that, I totally agree with frank. Being able to watch your animals interact with their environment (natural or artificial) is one of the best things about owning these animals in my opinion. I can watch my snakes move around their enclosures for hours at night. I read this quote from a large reptile keeper sometime last year and for the life of me can't remember it but it was something like:

"Create an environment in your animal's enclosure that closely replicates their natural habitat and conditions and they will reward you with complex and beautiful natural behaviour..." or something along those lines! Of course I believe this can be achieved through an artificial environment (not bio-active) .

[Andy_G]

In regards to the OP, all we can really do is sell with education and support. What someone does after the purchase is kind of out of our hands even though we would want it to be different.


Racking systems were originally thought up not only to save space, but also to help wild caught animals acclimate to captivity and feed regularly by reducing as much stress as possible (small and secure quarters, quickly stabilised conditions, easy to clean interior to reduce interaction, no bright lights). If snakes or specifically "enjoyed" being observed, I would whole-heartedly agree with replicating their natural environment in all instances, but they don't and it leaves them feeling vulnerable. Lots of species or individuals do well in larger naturalistic enclosures and aren't phased about being observed...and some even demand larger spaces with their activity levels or size and are sometimes unfairly denied it (but that's not unique to reptiles and amphibians), but others do not, and I believe it is usually US that would truly be benefiting from these large decorative enclosures (not necessarily a bad thing), not our captives, and to think otherwise is rather anthropomorphic to me. This "trickle down" effect from experienced hobbysits is NOT a bad thing in my opinion.

I love naturalistic enclosures...I even have a couple of bio-active ones myself and I do love watching the geckos present in them, and larger snakes that aren't phased by being on display and are very active are kept in sizeable vivs...but would I recommend for that to be done for all species? No.

[Aaron_S]

Andy_G is the problem in the industry.

That is all.