Do I have to worry?

[hissykisses]

Hello!

So my BP Peggy doesn't want to eat. I got her on October 1st, she's supposed to be about 1 year old and currently weighs 530grams. I've tried feeding her 4 times since I got her, but she keeps ignoring the food. I've tried with f/t big mice, a medium rat and even a small rat because she seemed interested in the rat the most, but she doesn't eat. Yesterday I tried with a mouse again and she did strike, but that was about it. After that she curled up and ignored it completely. I left it in her tank over night, but it was still there in the morning. She has been fed f/t before so that can't be the problem.
I got the impression that even the big mouse scared her (it was about 38grams, so not that huge, really)
Since I got her she lost 20grams and that's not much so I am not too worried at the moment, but I wonder if I should start to worry if she keeps refusing to eat. I've heard about BP's being picky eaters and all and also that they sometimes won't eat for months, but I would prefer if she would eat sooner rather than later.
I would try with living prey, but if she doesn't eat the animal I have no means to keep it somewhere here at home (and also don't want to) and I wouldn't dare to feed it to one of my other snakes in case they would refuse the f/t afterwards...
What to do?

[kiiarah]

My bp was the same way when I got him, the first time I attempted to feed him he struck just enough to knock the rat out of the hemostats and startled himself. After that he just wanted to escape. Every time I have tried wiggling the rat (he is eating F/T of course) he has seemed more focused on getting away than on striking or eating. I finally decided to take a different approach to it, which I will list, and he has been eating great since.

First of all, since he seemed panicked by the movement of the rat, I started leaving it at his hide entrance when the room is quiet and dark. The main things that you probably want to look into are the environment you are feeding him in, and the method you are using for thawing. If either of these are off many bps will refuse meals. Some do fine with feeding in a separate tub, but for more timid bps that can be enough stress to keep them from eating. I think this was the case with mine. If the rat is too hot or too cold they will often refuse to strike as well.

So the method I use:

I thaw the rodent overnight in the fridge to ensure that there are no spots that are too hot or too cold.
I then place the thawed rat in a Ziploc baggie and put it in a sink full of the hottest tap water the sink will run. After about 5 minutes in the sink I remove it from the bag and dip the head only in a cup of water that has been microwaved for about a minute. This step is just to bump the heat signature of the head. After that I dip the head in tuna juice (canned in water, not oil) to scent and pat dry with a paper towel. Finally I use a blow dryer to fully dry the rat to avoid getting substrate stuck to it.

To offer the food I put down a small cut out of cardboard like a plate and just set the rat on it in front of his hide, then close the tank lid and leave the room. If you are still and quiet you could back away a bit and watch to see if he takes it. Personally, I get stressed waiting for him to eat so I prefer to leave the room and come back to find the rat gone an hour or so later. This has worked like a charm for me. For quite a while he didn’t want to strike and coil and preferred to just quietly slither out, put his mouth around the rat and swallow it.

Out of curiosity, what method have you been using to thaw and how are you offering it for him?

[hissykisses]

Hello! Thanks for the answer!

I thaw the rats/mice in a plastic box at room temperature and then heat them up in hot water or using the blow-drier.
Then I usually just wiggle them around in front of my other snakes and they take the food right away, with my BP I also tried to just leave it in her tank and always left them in there over night as well, thinking that she might eat if there's no light in the room.

She looked really interested in the medium rat I offered, but I think in the end it might have been a tad too big, but she didn't take the smaller rat either. I am also not sure if she's really afraid or not. She keeps moving about her tank and also moves over the rodents as if they were just part of her enclosure. It's really weird...
I decided that I will try and cut the head of the rodent open when offering her food the next time. Somebody told me that usually helps because of the scent or maybe I will try the thing with the tuna juice first... and if she starts loosing weight and still doesn't eat I will have to offer her live prey. Although I am not quite sure if she would even eat that.

It's just unnerving because she seems interested in the food and she also roams around her tank when I feed the other snakes so I am pretty sure that she's hungry!
Maybe it's just really because of the mating season too, but she isn't that old and that's why I am not sure if that is the reason why she won't eat.

[kiiarah]

I suppose breeding season could have something to do with it. Shesha would do the same thing if tried wiggling the rat and then setting it down for him, would just slither over it to get where he wanted to go, just had no interest in it whatsoever. I can't really say for sure whether the tuna juice helped or whether it was setting the rat outside his hide, but he sure seemed to take immediate interest. The only other thing I tried other than scenting was the dipping the head in very hot water for a few seconds. From what I have read, unless outside factors are to blame (stress, imminent shed, temperatures etc.) the primary factors in feeding response would be heat signature of the prey and scent. I figured maybe giving the head a strong heat signature could help him recognize it as food. I would try both, just make sure to only dip in the hot water for a short time 7-10 seconds. The tuna juice could also have been what got his attention, but he definitely has taken immediate interest since I have been doing that. Make sure with the tuna juice that you thoroughly blow dry the rat as the juice tends to be sticky and could hold substrate as she is swallowing.

[hissykisses]

I will try it like you said the next time and hope it will eventually work out!
Doesn't matter if the tuna juice is sticky, I don't have any substrate in her enclosure at the moment, just kitchen paper, because of the quarantine

[kiiarah]

That sounds perfect then. I would be very interested to know if the tuna really makes that much of a difference. Some keepers swear by it. I guess I am just surprised by the idea that scent could ever be an issue, I mean it is one of their most developed senses. I guess it is possible that during the process of freezing and thawing the scent they are used to recognizing is partially lost. Do post an update please once you have tried feeding again, hopefully she will take it. I think you said the previous keeper was offering F/T and she was accepting it?

I was reading over the post that you made after you had just brought her home and noticed that the she had been housed in a very small enclosure before you got her. How big is the enclosure that she is in now and what are you using for hides and décor? I haven’t experienced it myself, but I have read a few accounts of people whose snakes refused food in a larger tank and suddenly ate well when moved to a smaller tub. Security is a big deal for bps so if she was used to a small enclosure, it is possible that she is feeling stressed or vulnerable in a larger space. Filling in the tank with hides and plants can help with this and give them the same feeling of confinement and security. Tubs are cheap and can be a good choice, but if you are like me you want to be able to see her when you walk by and not have her hidden away all the time. Just adding some clutter to the tank can be a good compromise. This may not have anything to do with her refusal but it wouldn’t be the first time that “upgrading” to a larger enclosure caused snakes to go off feed.

[shaunyboy]

make sure your temperatures are correct,if there's not enough heat to aid digestion a snake won't eat

what are your temperatures ?

has it got plenty hides and fake plants etc to provide cover to help it feel secure ?

do you handle the snake ?

how many times have you tried to feed her in the 25 days you have had her ?


re living prey
if you want to try live feeding,which imo it's still too early to go down that road,then try it and if she does not take it,then you don't have to keep it or feed it live to your other snakes,,,

just humainly kill it by breaking it's neck,with one fast hard blow on the edge of a table,shelf edge,etc,to the neck where it meets the head

if you answer my questions it will give people more insight into what's going on


cheers shaun

[hissykisses]

Since she's still in quarantine the enclosure (tub) I keep her in isn't too big! It's 80cm's long, 40 deep and 30 high. Although that's twice the length her other tank had... That also means there aren't that many hides, actually there's one cave and she keeps hiding in or between the kitchen paper or on top of the cave (wedged between the cave and the top of the enclosure) But there weren't any hides in her old enclosure so I don't think that's the problem ?? And yes, the previous owners were feeding her f/t too.

Temperatures are between 27°C on the cool side and 33°C on the warm side (that would be between: 80.6°F and 91.4°F)

I don't handle her, no. I just took her out twice so far to clean her enclosure but then didn't handle her excessively either. I just took her out, put her in another box, cleaned her enclosure and put her back into it.

I tried to feed her 4 times so far. Mostly because she would come out and move around her enclosure when I was feeding the other snakes and I took that as an interest in food.

About the living prey: I won't try that until she starts loosing too much weight. For now she's keeping steady at 530grams, so we're all good. But if I try and she doesn't eat it, there's no way I am going to kill it myself, haha. I would more likely keep it as a pet or find a new home for it or something like that ... But anyways, maybe she'll eat before I have to try that.

[kiiarah]

Hmmm, I would just ask where the hide is poitioned in the tank. If it is over the hot side it is possible that she doesn't want to be quite that warm and is looking for a tight secure hiding place that is cooler. It couldn't hurt to add another hide to give her the option to use both. 91 isn't a dangerous temperature of course, but for example my bp for whatever reason spends 90% of his time in the cool hide. Many will only use a hot hide when digesting and if she hasn't eaten yet it is possible that she doesn't want her temp that high. Have you tried contacting the previous owners to get details on where they were getting the rats and how they were preparing them? It isn't terribly common, but I have heard of snakes refusing food when the rat source is changed, but eating fine when the keeper goes back to getting the rats from the original place. People think it may have something to do with smell or the way the person selling them freezes, but it has been known to happen. If it were me, I would add a hide and see if her behavior changes at all. I would definitely contact the person you got her from and ask what was working for them if you haven't already.

[hissykisses]

The hide is in the middle of the enclosure and she sometimes curls up on the cooler side or the hotter side under the kitchen paper, but I will add another hide in the cooler part of the enclosure anyways!

I can't contact the previous owners and really wouldn't want to do that because they were so indifferent when it came to the snake... They were just happy to get rid of it and didn't really care about the animal at all.

I will also buy a new, proper tank next week so she will have plenty of hiding places and all that and maybe, once she has settled in there, she will start eating too. Probably it's really just the mating season as well.

[Aaron_S]

She's probably scared and stressed by the size of her environment. If she's shown interest in the rat I am guessing this may be the problem.

We have to remember that while these snakes eat in the wild they are at one of their most vulnerable times. They need security to eat. I would recommend two tight fitting hides with one at either end of the tub.

The other way is to use a smaller bin. She may be 500 grams but doesn't mean she's comfortable in what I'd call closer to an adult sized bin.

[kiiarah]

You could of course get a tank and more filler, especially if she is out of quarantine now, but just keep in mind that any tank change is going to somewhat reset her settling in process. Maybe I misunderstood, is she in a tub currently or a small tank? Tubs are actually better for security, or at least easier to make feel secure. You can make a tank feel secure by adding enough decor and clutter, but keep in mind that everything you add will have to be cleaned and sterilized regularly. So more in the tank will mean more work on cleaning day. If you don't mind this it can be nice to get to observe their behavior more readily.

I completely understand not wanting to contact the previous keepers. I have adopted animals in similar conditions and sometimes it really does make the most sense to forget the previous "parents" even existed. It can be frustrating when an animal was doing fine with bad keepers and then has issues when conditions are finally right. Just remember, any change is stressful for a snake, even the change of going from bad care to good. She really may just be figuring things out.

If you do decide to move her to a tank, just remember the same rule applies of a week that she should be left alone to get used to the new tank. I have also heard that offering food too often can keep them stressed, so if you do move her make sure not to feed or do much of anything except change out the water for a week. If you could post a picture of the current enclosure we may be able to offer more advice. Sometimes it just takes trying different things until they finally accept food. If you could post a picture of the current enclosure we may be able to offer more advice.

Edit: This is just a thought that occurred to me, and it may be completely incorrect, but I wonder if snakes being in something like a tank where they can see activity outside their enclosure may result in a less timid snake. It seems like if snakes adjust to handling when it is frequent and become more tame, being exposed to things like people walking by may eventually lead them to become less fearful about that as well. I just wonder if maybe a snake kept away from people (tub or otherwise) would be more stressed by something small like opening the tub to feed, since they rarely see anyone, whereas a more exposed snake may think less of it. Like I said, I may be totally off base here, but it seems like if the goal is to have the snake adjust to having people around and being interacted with, being closed away in a tub could slow the adjustment process. Maybe they adjust easier in a tub because there is less they are adjusting to, whereas in a tank they are having to adjust to activity around them as well as the actual enclosure instead of just adjusting to their surroundings. This may mean a slower initial adjustment period, but I would think it may result in a snake that is less bothered by people being around or messing with the tank once they do settle in.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by kiiarah

You could of course get a tank and more filler, especially if she is out of quarantine now, but just keep in mind that any tank change is going to somewhat reset her settling in process. Maybe I misunderstood, is she in a tub currently or a small tank? Tubs are actually better for security, or at least easier to make feel secure. You can make a tank feel secure by adding enough decor and clutter, but keep in mind that everything you add will have to be cleaned and sterilized regularly. So more in the tank will mean more work on cleaning day. If you don't mind this it can be nice to get to observe their behavior more readily. ...

This snake has been in quarantine for 27 days as it was bought on the first of the month. A standard quarantine time is 60 - 90 days. Not even half way there.

Also, most quarantine practices consider that the snake has to be eating consistently and well before removing them from quarantine.

Suggesting a tank at this point is probably not a very good idea. If the snake isn't eating inside a tub with minimal decor and space I doubt a larger space will be of any help.

[kiiarah]

Oh right, yeah a month would not be long enough for quarantine. So hold that advice for another couple of months then. That being said I would still add another hide and pics of the enclosure couldn't hurt. During quarantine you want as little in there as possible, but the hides should be an exception of course. The smaller area the easier it is to keep immaculate and notice any issues as soon as they come up.

[hissykisses]

She will be in quarantine for 60 days. I will buy and set up the tank sometime in November and then move her at the start of December.
Currently she's in a tub and she doesn't seem stressed about me moving around the room. During the day she stays in her hide, but at night she comes out and moves around, not caring if I am there or not. At first she was scared when I would move, but by now she really doesn't pay any attention to what I am doing and also comes looking when I change her water, so I would say she's pretty curious just like my other snakes!

As for the tank: I don't plan on buying a massive one, I would just like to put her into a tank because I can put more hides and so on in there, unlike with the box. And it's also about the temperature and humidity. In winter I won't be able to keep proper temperatures in a plastic tube and I don't even want to think of what the humidity is going to be like...

I was wondering this: I got a male BP, but he's only 6 months old... could it be that's what is messing with her eating habit as well? Whenever she comes out of her hide it looks like she's trying to get to him and she's definitely even more active ever since I got him! His tub is placed on a shelf above hers...

As for pictures of the tub, I can take some tomorrow and post them, but there won't be much to see. There's nothing in it except for kitchen paper, a water dish and her hide, since it isn't too big either... It's the same setup as for the little BP and he's doing just fine and was eating on the day after I bought him, only refusing to eat now because he went into shed...