Herps you don't think should be kept as pets?

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by CosmicOwl

Hmm... this thread drifted into some weird territory.

....

I suppose this is my fault for not being explicit in my original post, but I was talking about animal welfare. Hence why I brought up wild caught hots and alligators being kept in kiddie pools. We can argue all day or which animals we have the "right" to possess, but that's not the point. The question is, does owning these animals result in a positive or negative outcome? Do the animals benefit or suffer? What are the impacts to the environment should these animals escape? And so forth.

If the subject is welfare, then why limit it to reptiles? Walk a month in my line of work. I'll tell you right now, there are many people in this country alone completely unfit to keep animals period, whether it be dogs, cats, cockatoos, or snakes or horses, but the laws we have are laughable. Even if there is a violation, most of the time, its a slap on the wrist and the owner is merely instructed to straighten up. And what is welfare exactly? Keeping the animal healthy? And the ability to keep the animal safely confined so it does not escape and injure itself or anything else? [shrugs]

For example [I may have already cited this in thread - forgive me if I have, its been going on for so long, I can't remember! ], in Alabama, it is permissible by state law to chain up your dog in your yard as long as the chain is 10 ft long, there is a shelter (no real definition listed), and fresh water & food is given. Could be a plastic doghouse with no floor, and its over 100'F outside, and its within the law.
---
So back to the initial question: in terms of the average person being able to provide any given animal what it needs to not only stay alive, but thrive...I would definitely say...

Herps I don't think should be kept as pets are:

• large monitors (except ackies perhaps)
• crocodilians
• large iguana species (green, rock, rhinos, etc)

I almost said large tortoises, like sulcatas, but despite their size, they are hardy, their mortality rate in captivity is significantly less than iguanas (even as babies), and contrary to what some sites & groups claim, it is not hard to rehome large adults. Yes, it can be hard to securely confine a large sulcata, but in terms of feeding, and just housing them, they're pretty sturdy (more along the lines of a small pony or goat).

[franks]

So you would ban savanah monitors based on the fact that most people that keep them cannot provide for their welfare? That's a slippery slope. That leads to conversations about the way people house their snakes in plastic shoe boxes. I agree with your sentiments concerning the volume of mistreated animals in this country- but I would hate to see the government start enforcing regulations on citizens regarding their pets and or hobbies.
Also your point seems to be based on the difficulty of getting an animal to "thrive" in captivity which completely misses the point and does not address the core issue that you brought up yourself: people mistreat anamals. If person X is irresponsible and government regulations prevent him from getting- say- a savanah monitor than that monitor is spared from the mistreatment. But person X is going to get a bearded dragon instead and mistreat that animal. Some people take this hobby very seriously, and to others it is just a fad that quickly loses its glamor. That aspect is not changing anytime soon. Government regulations do not differentiate- they are imposed on the responsible in order to curb the irresponsible. That is the point and the nature of them.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by franks

So you would ban savanah monitors based on the fact that most people that keep them cannot provide for their welfare?
That's a slippery slope. That leads to conversations about the way people house their snakes in plastic shoe boxes. I agree with your sentiments concerning the volume of mistreated animals in this country- but I would hate to see the government start enforcing regulations on citizens regarding their pets and or hobbies.
Also your point seems to be based on the difficulty of getting an animal to "thrive" in captivity which completely misses the point and does not address the core issue that you brought up yourself: people mistreat anamals. If person X is irresponsible and government regulations prevent him from getting- say- a savanah monitor than that monitor is spared from the mistreatment. But person X is going to get a bearded dragon instead and mistreat that animal. Some people take this hobby very seriously, and to others it is just a fad that quickly loses its glamor. That aspect is not changing anytime soon. Government regulations do not differentiate- they are imposed on the responsible in order to curb the irresponsible. That is the point and the nature of them.

The OP asked a question and I responded with my opinion. It should be noted that the OP did not mention a ban in their initial query and neither did I.

I do not think an outright ban is the answer, but I'm not sure what is. I know what we have right is not working at all. Its funny you bring up savannah monitors because not only are they the most commonly kept monitor species, but the most misunderstood in terms in husbandry and arguably, more die in the name of the pet trade every than any other monitor species.

So what's the solution to reduce the number of thousands of dead savannah monitors? Education is a very slow & steady game, because there's still oodles of misinformation that people regurgitate and cite and the faction of hobbyists trying to enlighten the masses is still a small minority [right, Wayne? I know you agree!]

We could regulate or reduce the numbers of savs being imported from Africa, which would limit the supply, thus driving up the price of WC savs, making them either more desirable and/or not as available to the average person. Of course, the only way that's gonna happen is A.) convince the countries of origin that savannah monitors are threatened enough to warrant protection, or B.) convince the pet trade in the U.S. there is not enough demand to warrant the import of such high numbers. I doubt either will happen.

The other option is an aforementioned license or permit system that people to actually "qualify" for and get certified to possess certain animals.

Or....an outright ban on the species altogether.

I don't have all the answers....but I tell you what: I get tired of seeing people neglect their pets (any type of pet). I get tired of seeing people trying to rehome sav monitors, iguanas, big snakes, tortoises, etc, all because they lost interest, or the animals are too much to keep or handle, too large, etc., tired of seeing people posting about "oops, Spike or Kaa got out again! Tee hee!" I get tired of see people mishandling herps, and news articles of another python found somewhere in someone's apartment complex (not just in Florida!). Its not just a welfare problem, its a PEOPLE problem, plain and simple.
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Which leads me to something else...

Franks, you hit on something else, by mentioned in keeping snakes in little plastic boxes. Once again, I'll say this is not just about pythons in Florida, or whether we have rights vs privileges, or a welfare issue on alligators & giant lizards in bathtubs. Its about common stuff, too.

In this hobby, we are at the precipice of which some species (namely ball pythons and corn snakes at the top of the list, & perhaps other colubrids, maybe leopard geckos and bearded dragons down further) are so "popular" and so commonly bred, they are close to the stage as dogs & cats are, when the "by-products" of the genetic mutations are being produced = large quantities of normal phenotype, low-value animals put in the market. Think I'm wrong? How many ball pythons are showing up on Craigslist & similar classifieds venues nowadays? Heck even, low-value morphs like pastels & spiders are hitting CL ads. I know that's not a concrete analysis of the reptile economic, but its a keen observation. I know reptile rescues here locally who cannot GIVE AWAY normal ball python adoptions (snakes that are vet-checked, feeding great & mite-free).

What does that tell you? Normal ball pythons have the market value of a stray dog. Unless you just happen to know someone wants one then and now, & that particular size and gender, or happens to have the space or money to care for one.....its' "nah, I ain't got room for another snake."

[Georgia]

The problem i see with the "permit" system is this...
1. What are the standards to prove one can competently have x reptile?
2. Is there a written test like youd take at the DMV and a test to demonstrate your skills and knowledge? If not then that PERMIT system doesnt mean a damn thing and is pointless other than for collecting money and control.

[Georgia]

as everyone can tell I'm 100 percent against permits.

[franks]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

The OP asked a question and I responded with my opinion. It should be noted that the OP did not mention a ban in their initial query and neither did I.

I do not think an outright ban is the answer, but I'm not sure what is. I know what we have right is not working at all. Its funny you bring up savannah monitors because not only are they the most commonly kept monitor species, but the most misunderstood in terms in husbandry and arguably, more die in the name of the pet trade every than any other monitor species.

So what's the solution to reduce the number of thousands of dead savannah monitors? Education is a very slow & steady game, because there's still oodles of misinformation that people regurgitate and cite and the faction of hobbyists trying to enlighten the masses is still a small minority [right, Wayne? I know you agree!]

We could regulate or reduce the numbers of savs being imported from Africa, which would limit the supply, thus driving up the price of WC savs, making them either more desirable and/or not as available to the average person. Of course, the only way that's gonna happen is A.) convince the countries of origin that savannah monitors are threatened enough to warrant protection, or B.) convince the pet trade in the U.S. there is not enough demand to warrant the import of such high numbers. I doubt either will happen.

The other option is an aforementioned license or permit system that people to actually "qualify" for and get certified to possess certain animals.

Or....an outright ban on the species altogether.

I don't have all the answers....but I tell you what: I get tired of seeing people neglect their pets (any type of pet). I get tired of seeing people trying to rehome sav monitors, iguanas, big snakes, tortoises, etc, all because they lost interest, or the animals are too much to keep or handle, too large, etc., tired of seeing people posting about "oops, Spike or Kaa got out again! Tee hee!" I get tired of see people mishandling herps, and news articles of another python found somewhere in someone's apartment complex (not just in Florida!). Its not just a welfare problem, its a PEOPLE problem, plain and simple.
---
Which leads me to something else...

Franks, you hit on something else, by mentioned in keeping snakes in little plastic boxes. Once again, I'll say this is not just about pythons in Florida, or whether we have rights vs privileges, or a welfare issue on alligators & giant lizards in bathtubs. Its about common stuff, too.

In this hobby, we are at the precipice of which some species (namely ball pythons and corn snakes at the top of the list, & perhaps other colubrids, maybe leopard geckos and bearded dragons down further) are so "popular" and so commonly bred, they are close to the stage as dogs & cats are, when the "by-products" of the genetic mutations are being produced = large quantities of normal phenotype, low-value animals put in the market. Think I'm wrong? How many ball pythons are showing up on Craigslist & similar classifieds venues nowadays? Heck even, low-value morphs like pastels & spiders are hitting CL ads. I know that's not a concrete analysis of the reptile economic, but its a keen observation. I know reptile rescues here locally who cannot GIVE AWAY normal ball python adoptions (snakes that are vet-checked, feeding great & mite-free).

What does that tell you? Normal ball pythons have the market value of a stray dog. Unless you just happen to know someone wants one then and now, & that particular size and gender, or happens to have the space or money to care for one.....its' "nah, I ain't got room for another snake."

I do not disagree with what you are saying at all- I just do not like how you are leaning towards involving the government as a solution. The reason I chose Savanah Monitor as an example is because I keep one. I feel perfectly confident expressing my belief that no other reptile is mistreated in that high of a percentage. Aside from the forums, I have never even heard of one being kept correctly. Your Craigslist example is a great one and where I live the ball python issue is much more severe than you gave credit. It's a national issue to some extent. I was talking to a very reputable breeder who was trying to get rid of breeder female pastels for $100 a piece and couldn't move them. He was trying to give them away. In the tri - state area, here, CL is swamped with Mojave and Fire and all that stuff.

It's a tricky issue. When it comes to government regulations there are no perfect answers. Just because so ebony else is mistreating their animals does not mean that my keeping of animals should be imposed upon at all by the government. That is my opinion and I completely understand the other side of it. Where I live people fight dogs. That is horrible, but I do not want regulations imposed on what I do with my dog because of them.

Self regulation is a utopian concept, proved to be flawed to the point of failure, but is still the method I like the best. It starts with the sellers. The people importing monitors and selling them 2 for $20. When I bought my monitor the man selling him to me tried so hard to get me to take 3. Offered me all kinds of deals. Who could possibly care for 3 monitors? Never have I bought an animal where I was asked how I would be keeping it (except for my dog.)

The realistic truth is sad- we cannot do it ourself. The government has been involved and more involvement is in our future. Our only hope is in the popularity of our hobby at this point- which puts us in a bad spot because the more people that get into the hobby the more careless mistakes and mistreated animals. The other day I saw a fashion add on the subway with a young African American man decked out in designer clothes holding a ball python- I thought that was very cool. Sorry student- I think I'm rambling at this point. I'm a brand new father, I haven't slept in two weeks.

[SSSSnakes]

Government bans stop nothing, it just makes for under ground markets. People are going to keep and buy what they want if it is legal or not. They even advertise the sale of illegal snakes on forums and Craigslist.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by franks

Where I live people fight dogs. That is horrible, but I do not want regulations imposed on what I do with my dog because of them.

+1

I wholeheartedly agree

[StudentoReptile]

I do not like govt intrusion anymore than anyone else, but...does anyone have an alternative solution?

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

I do not like govt intrusion anymore than anyone else, but...does anyone have an alternative solution?

If we apply the same logic to Frank's point on dogs, what kind of government intrusion do you propose would help the problem?

[SSSSnakes]

Governments intrusion has not solved any problems. People still keep what they want regardless of what the laws say.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by SSSSnakes

Governments intrusion has not solved any problems. People still keep what they want regardless of what the laws say.

Then more people disobey the laws, then they make more laws then before you know it, there's laws prohibiting everything and everyone is an outlaw.

Sorry, I just don't agree that is an acceptable outcome. I know people that work with the laws and the permit system, while not entirely desirable, works.

The issue is that 99% of the reptile community thinks they are innocent of everything, and they have a right to keep whatever they want, and their mentality is that they WILL keep whatever they want until they get caught, and even then, they'll keep on doing whatever, and it keeps making it look bad for the tiny minority of us who are trying to make a difference. As long as this keeps going on, everything will get worse. Period.

So gentlemen, my herp society and I will work toward the goals we have set before ourselves, and until someone else comes up with a better solution than the above, we will continue to do so, and I encourage everyone else to do the same.

[SSSSnakes]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Then more people disobey the laws, then they make more laws then before you know it, there's laws prohibiting everything and everyone is an outlaw.

That's the way it goes and that is the way it will end up, with rebellion. But isn't that the way this country started in the first place.

[IW17]

Originally Posted by SSSSnakes

That's the way it goes and that is the way it will end up, with rebellion. But isn't that the way this country started in the first place.

Amen. People in this country have gotten way to submissive with our govt. A sit back and take it on the chin attitude. And the govt will keep overreaching it's boundaries until we stand up for ourselves and put them back in there place. The purpose of govt is to be the voice of the people, not our appointed nannies. At some point you have to push back, either figuratively, or physically. We need to show this govt the same as we did the last, that we are free men and women willing to fight back against oppression, and take back our freedoms that we are slowly losing day by day.

[Georgia]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

The issue is that 99% of the reptile community thinks they are innocent of everything, and they have a right to keep whatever they want, and their mentality is that they WILL keep whatever they want until they get caught, and even then, they'll keep on doing whatever, and it keeps making it look bad for the tiny minority of us who are trying to make a difference. As long as this keeps going on, everything will get worse. Period.

So you are saying that 99% of the reptile community is the problem? Thats total nonsense. I think you got that backwards.