Steady temperatures or not?

[Derek Roddy]

Originally Posted by CosmicOwl

This is really interesting. It seem like a schedule of smaller meals more frequently would be less natural than feeding large meals less frequently.

See, this is one of those instances where y'all ask how "myths" get started.

Why do keeper feel that these animals can't find and kill food in the wild?

All the studies I've seen and the research I've done myself.... not to mention the amount of animals I've followed during my youth all suggest that these animals are highly effective hunters.

There was a black rat snake on our property as a kid. Every summer (for about 4 years) I saw this snake and every time I saw him....(about every 3 days) he had a fresh meal in his gut.

I think a lot of it comes from people only taking pictures of these large meals being eating and that's not the norm at all. Those large oversized meals don't happen very often....(but, they do happen)

But, there's nothing exciting about a snake eating a rat or frog so, people don't bother taking photos of such "normal" events.
Only if there's a burm with a gator, or Olive with a wallaby, or African Rock with a gazelle.......etc

These animals are highly successful eaters in the wild.

D

[CosmicOwl]

Originally Posted by Derek Roddy

See, this is one of those instances where y'all ask how "myths" get started.

Why do keeper feel that these animals can't find and kill food in the wild?

All the studies I've seen and the research I've done myself.... not to mention the amount of animals I've followed during my youth all suggest that these animals are highly effective hunters.

There was a black rat snake on our property as a kid. Every summer (for about 4 years) I saw this snake and every time I saw him....(about every 3 days) he had a fresh meal in his gut.

I think a lot of it comes from people only taking pictures of these large meals being eating and that's not the norm at all. Those large oversized meals don't happen very often....(but, they do happen)

But, there's nothing exciting about a snake eating a rat or frog so, people don't bother taking photos of such "normal" events.
Only if there's a burm with a gator, or Olive with a wallaby, or African Rock with a gazelle.......etc

These animals are highly successful eaters in the wild.

D

That is a fair point, and I wasn't trying to say that they should be power fed. You make a good point about them being good hunters and I guess they probably would eat whatever they could get their mouths around in the wild. What really interests me is the role of metabolism in a snake's health and longevity. We know that some healthy individuals can go a year or more with suffering more than minor weight loss. How long after eating can they shift into that state of super low metabolic action that allows them to go for extreme period of time without eating? What are the long term pros and cons of this fasting?

[CameronVarnish]

Originally Posted by Derek Roddy

It's not difficult, it just takes time.

In the early 90's I had a clutch of Carpets that I did a feeding experiment with.

As a kid I spent several hours a day in the woods looking for wildlife....snakes in general. In all that time as a kid (and even now) I had NEVER seen a fat snake in the bush...(still to this day haven't). Sure, maybe see a snake that's eaten a big meal but, never a fat snake.

So, when I started keeping exotics (in the mid/late 80s) and, meeting local herpers, etc... I would always hear these statements like "condition her for breeding" make sure she has "enough body weight", "fatten her up", etc.

Didn't really think about it until I started noticing that the average life span of a captive snake was only about 15 years. I had read in books that snakes have been known to live upwards of 40 years in zoo's (who BTW don't use terms or husbandry like "fatten her up for breeding") so, I wondered if over feeding these animals would shorten their life span?


In the early 90s... I had a clutch of carpets that I gave 2.2 to a buddy who was of the "condition for breeding" mindset.
For the first 3 years he fed very heavy, and when the animals were mature and breeding, he would cut back feeding and offer very large meals but, only every few weeks.

I kept 2.2 for myself and started a feeding schedule of smaller meals more often.

Now my animals weren't breeding as quickly as his were but, all of his are now dead (at about 13/15 years old) and mine are still breeding at 20+.


D

I find this very interesting. How often do you feed, and what percentage of the body weight of the snake is your meal?
Thanks, Cameron

[Derek Roddy]

Originally Posted by CameronVarnish

I find this very interesting. How often do you feed, and what percentage of the body weight of the snake is your meal?
Thanks, Cameron

I simply feed smaller meals more often....instead of 1 very large meal very several weeks

So, If I have a 5 foot snake, it's gets small rats. Then it gets fed when it's searching for food again. (which will generally be 4 to 5 days)

D

[Derek Roddy]

Oh yeah and consistent temps.

I've never done it myself but, there are a few keepers I know that use this method. I personally feel that if they don't have a heat source at night in the wild....why give them one in captivity?

I personally believe they do benefit from being able to "cool down" during the evenings. Just as eggs sometimes benefit from night temp drops.

D

[SnakeyJay]

I'm not disputing that it could be beneficial but something popped into my mind reading this.. The weather temps for the country of origins that would be collected and used for the stats would be surface or air temps?. The snakes would have the option (if terrestrial) to find burrows and shelter where the temperature hasn't dropped to such a degree..

How would you get around this, or would you offer some heat source at night aswell?

[Tsubaki]

Originally Posted by Derek Roddy

Oh yeah and consistent temps.

I've never done it myself but, there are a few keepers I know that use this method. I personally feel that if they don't have a heat source at night in the wild....why give them one in captivity?

I personally believe they do benefit from being able to "cool down" during the evenings. Just as eggs sometimes benefit from night temp drops.

D

Because where they come from, their tail won't freeze of from a 'cool down'.. If the weather is bad enough here, i think i get Snake-Popsicles in the morning in stead of cooled down snakes. Ever walked around in a tropical country at night? I went to Thailand last winter, and at 3 am i was still walking around in only shirt and shorts. (Even though the natives were wearing coats and scarfs etc haha) Its not natural to have any artificial heat source, but it's even more unnatural to let a snake experiences night temperatures of the wrong climate.

So basically, i think Cooling down is nice, the temperature drops here 2. But unless you live in a similar climate, and can imitate thinks like rotting piles of leaves where they can find a bit more warmth at night.. You should at least offer similar native ambient temperatures.

[Derek Roddy]

Originally Posted by Tsubaki

Because where they come from, their tail won't freeze of from a 'cool down'..

Huh????? Who would let their snakes freeze from a "cool down"....that makes absolutely no sense. Haha

Originally Posted by Tsubaki

Have you ever walked around in a tropical country at night?

Yes, I've been to Australia, Indo, Thailand, India, Africa and, I live in south florida.

Originally Posted by Tsubaki

thinks like rotting piles of leaves where they can find a bit more warmth at night.. You should at least offer similar native ambient temperatures.

Native natural temps in any pythons range is normally 8-10 degrees cooler at night than the day.....my point was why keep them at the same temps all the time when they get a natural 10 - 30 degree drops (depending on time of year)?

And a pile of leaves, hole in the ground, etc is not a heat source.

The same thing can be accomplished with a next/hide box in their cage.



D

[Terranaut]

Originally Posted by Tsubaki

Because where they come from, their tail won't freeze of from a 'cool down'.. If the weather is bad enough here, i think i get Snake-Popsicles in the morning in stead of cooled down snakes. Ever walked around in a tropical country at night? I went to Thailand last winter, and at 3 am i was still walking around in only shirt and shorts. (Even though the natives were wearing coats and scarfs etc haha) Its not natural to have any artificial heat source, but it's even more unnatural to let a snake experiences night temperatures of the wrong climate.

So basically, i think Cooling down is nice, the temperature drops here 2. But unless you live in a similar climate, and can imitate thinks like rotting piles of leaves where they can find a bit more warmth at night.. You should at least offer similar native ambient temperatures.

I don't think Derek has his snakes outside so I doubt they will see anything cooler than the ambient temps of his home. I do this for my carpets and colubrids but my boa and ball get heat 24/7.

[Derek Roddy]

Originally Posted by Snakey-Jay

The snakes would have the option (if terrestrial) to find burrows and shelter where the temperature hasn't dropped to such a degree..

How would you get around this, or would you offer some heat source at night aswell?

I'm curious as to why you think that temps drop to "such a degree" in python territory around the world?
I mean, with the exception of the Diamond python.....most pythons around the world live in the same weather conditions. Some a little drier, some a little wetter but, the ambient temps are about the same the world over where these animals occur.

88-90 during the day 80-84 at night (averages) for most of these snakes populations.

Unless you let your room drop below 60 every night.....your snakes will be just fine at room temps at nighttime.

During winter months....my room can get down to the low 60s mid 50s and they're just fine.

D

[SnakeyJay]

Originally Posted by Derek Roddy

I'm curious as to why you think that temps drop to "such a degree" in python territory around the world?
I mean, with the exception of the Diamond python.....most pythons around the world live in the same weather conditions. Some a little drier, some a little wetter but, the ambient temps are about the same the world over where these animals occur.

88-90 during the day 80-84 at night (averages) for most of these snakes populations.

Unless you let your room drop below 60 every night.....your snakes will be just fine at room temps at nighttime.

During winter months....my room can get down to the low 60s mid 50s and they're just fine.

D

Firstly, I wasn't aware that this was only relating to pythons so I'm sorry if I missed that.

That's my point, temps here in winter will drop quite low within my household ( need new windows fitted) and that isn't their natural temp drop.. I may be missing something tho n not quite get your point.

[Tsubaki]

My snakes are up in the attic, and if its freezing outside. its not 'room temperature' (depending on the definition) in there so they Need a heat source at night.

No heat source + freezing outdoor temps = Snake Popsicles haha

[Derek Roddy]

Originally Posted by Snakey-Jay

Firstly, I wasn't aware that this was only relating to pythons so I'm sorry if I missed that.

That's my point, temps here in winter will drop quite low within my household ( need new windows fitted) and that isn't their natural temp drop.. I may be missing something tho n not quite get your point.

Well, with any other snakes such as colubrids, etc.....some live in area's where it does freeze and, they have no heat source in the wild. So, in that case you should do you provide a heat source? Do you not hibernate them if they do so in the wild?

The point I was making is if you keep your animal at a natural temp range of their own temp range. Why would you not offer a night drop if that's what they get in the wild? Why would you keep them at a consistent temp if they don't get that where they come from?

D

[Derek Roddy]

Originally Posted by Tsubaki

My snakes are up in the attic, and if its freezing outside. its not 'room temperature' (depending on the definition) in there so they Need a heat source at night.

No heat source + freezing outdoor temps = Snake Popsicles haha

I understand that....does that mean that they don't get a night drop? Are they a constant temp all day/all year? Maybe they get a night drop naturally because of your natural night temp drop in a freezing room (during the winter)

Also, if your snakes are in an attic that freezes......how are you keeping the air temps properly?
Because, providing a hot spot when the air temp is freezing isn't the best environment for your snakes.

I'm curious how you try maintain the air temps. Heat panels, Lights, belly heat, etc?

I'm sure it can be done but, that's got to be a headache. haha.

D

[Tsubaki]

A.t.m in my temporary enclosures: I use 2 heat mats on the bottom, one small one and a large one. The large one is set on a lower temp and is always on, the smaller one is used as a hotspot during the day. During the winter i have to turn on a infrared bulb as well, to make sure the ambient temperatures don't drop too much. The smaller mat going off, and the bulb being tuned down by my day/night thermostats. Make for a nice cool down during the night, without them freezing or me having to tweak everything myself every night.

Going to be different though, we're working on our attic now and building new enclosures. These will have normal (not pet specific) floor heating, and we're insulating the roof so the ambient temperatures will be easier to maintain.