Your view of the reptile hobby

[poison123]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

This is why I avoided this thread altogether.

Its cause of Mikoh huh?

I hate that dude

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by poison123

Its cause of Mikoh huh?

I hate that dude

Yeah me too. That guy keeps expressing his views in a thread about epressing views. When is he going to shut up and do something about it?

[AussieSnake]

Really glad we don't have Ball pythons in Australia (legal ones at least) if this is the uproar they cause. Phew Its good to read a thread like this though as I think the hobby in Australia is probably at a stage that North America was 10-15 years ago, we are starting to see the emergence of larger breeders and new morphs, we are still restricted by government laws in different states though around what can be sold and how. I hope the hobby stays a hobby, that's my view.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by AussieSnake

Really glad we don't have Ball pythons in Australia (legal ones at least) if this is the uproar they cause. Phew Its good to read a thread like this though as I think the hobby in Australia is probably at a stage that North America was 10-15 years ago, we are starting to see the emergence of larger breeders and new morphs, we are still restricted by government laws in different states though around what can be sold and how. I hope the hobby stays a hobby, that's my view.

to tell you the truth it's not really an uproar. I think most people are fine with it, some people like me are a bit annoyed by it but it's not a big deal.

The only uproar is when I state my opinions and people tell me I have no right to unless I take action. Like really? Okay there are too many ball pythons at expos, how about I just won't go to them. I'm not going to try to be a hero and change the scene. Let the people do what they want. If everyone wants to breed ball pythons and have nothing but ball pythons at expos....let it be. I'll just say I don't like it and stand back.

Same with drugs. If people want to take heroin let em. I don't like it. I'll say I don't like it. But I'm not going to try and be a hero and because a heroin addict tells me " If you don't like people taking heroin, do something about it!"

The ball python morph craze is much more trivial than that.

With a thread started originally for sharing views, it became into a multi-page long defense of myself for wanting to share our views without calling eachother out on complaining, being lazy...etc.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by limey

My impression, other than agreeing with what others have said is this:

- Yes, too many people are crazy about these man-made "morphs". To quote a friend of mine "Morphs generally tend to attract the wrong type of people to the hobby".

Morphs aren't "man made" they are genetic deformities that exist in nature. The reason we have them in the hobby is because they survived long enough to A) pass on their genes or B) to be captured and imported.

Originally Posted by limey

- Wild phase animals are the most beautiful - they are what mother nature created, they have natural beauty and not been manipulated or selectively bred by humans to achieve a certain desired look or effect. Therefore, any upstanding naturalist should consider "normals" to be a staple of their "collection". If hoarding is what you are in to.

This is all purely a personal opinion and some serious misinformation. All of the mutations are created by "mother nature", hence why almost all morphs were actually WC and imported.

My personal opinion is that leopard boas are the most beautiful boa their is available. The leopard gene comes from a specific location where they are found in the wild.

Originally Posted by limey

- There is a very small percentage of keepers that actually know what they are talking about, through and through. And of those that do, there is a tendency towards condescension of other reptile keepers. Such has been the occasional history on this forum (people butting heads, telling others they are wrong, or they know best etc).

All in all, there does tend to be a lot of reptile keepers with superiority complexes. That is one thing I would change - make more keepers "down to earth".
.

You're right about a very small percentage of keepers actually knowing what they are talking about. Most keepers know next to nothing about what they are talking about yet will argue and fight tooth and nail because they truly believe they are right. That is what breeds the feelings of condescension from the learned. We have to literally pounds the message home and work continually to keep bad information from spreading and quite frankly it gets old real quick.

[AussieSnake]

Fair Point. I have seen similar threads started on Australian forums, and similar stuff happens. A lot of people get into a 15 page dialogue around who's view is right etc etc.
But I do find that the common thread to it all is money. In any popular or growing hobby/industry, their will be people/companies that benefit from the growth, and their contribution to the hobby is always questioned (sometimes rightfully so).
My belief is my hobby is for me, I do what I want without the influence of the fads and crazes. My animals are mine to care for and any advances in husbandry, as well as legislation is great, and if there was any sort of organisation in Australia that spoke up for the reptile hobby in Australia I would support them, if the benefits were for everyone, not just those with the most to gain. I don't think a personal hobby is there for anyone to change. I will agree with you on that, if it is your hobby you don't have to change anything for anyone.

P.S - By the looks of your avatar Mikoh, your Morelia don't get outside much. LOL

[AussieSnake]

[QUOTE=KORBIN5895;901737]Morphs aren't "man made" they are genetic deformities that exist in nature. The reason we have them in the hobby is because they survived long enough to A) pass on their genes or B) to be captured and imported.


This may be true for colours and patterns, but what about the jag gene in Morelia species, I can't say that you would see too many neuro cases surviving long in the wild? I'm not 100%, but I wouldn't be betting my house that the first jag was found on a branch in North Queensland.

[KORBIN5895]

[QUOTE=AussieSnake;901741]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

Morphs aren't "man made" they are genetic deformities that exist in nature. The reason we have them in the hobby is because they survived long enough to A) pass on their genes or B) to be captured and imported.


This may be true for colours and patterns, but what about the jag gene in Morelia species, I can't say that you would see too many neuro cases surviving long in the wild? I'm not 100%, but I wouldn't be betting my house that the first jag was found on a branch in North Queensland.

Isn't the jag gene a co-dominant gene? If so then it would've had to have been a WC.

Spider bp are a dominant gene and the first one was a WC. Spiders also have a head wobble.

[Snakefood]

WOW, what a read!! I have actually read every post here and here is my personal opinion.

I LOVE MORPHS!!!! I love Cornsnake morphs, I love Ball Python morphs, I love Boa morphs, I think they are beautiful and yes, I do breed them. I breed for the ones I find beautiful, different and amazing. Now if someone else likes them and buys them from me, great!! I don't care what is the "most popular" I breed what catches my eye!!

I personally think that this hobby would be incredibly boring if there were only the "normal" in any species.

I feel for those of you who's local expo's are over-run by one species, thankfully our local expo is extremely varied, We get to see many different species of snakes, Gecko's, lizards, frogs and Arachnids. I guess we're just lucky that way.

As for morph's being "man-made" that is ridiculous!! The originals of these "morphs" are genetic anomalies in the wild, captured and bred into the captive population. The most recent that I am aware of is the "Palmetto Corn", a fully grown, mature male was captured IN THE WILD, and bought by a breeder who then bred that male into his captive collection. (again, my opinion, these Palmettos are GORGEOUS!!)

To answer the original question of "My view of the reptile Hobby": My view is that individual people all have individual ideas of what they love about their chosen species, and that is what makes us such a varied population. And I love it!!

"What would I change??" well I can't remember who actually said it (it was many pages ago now!) but I would change the way pet stores sell their reptiles. In my personal experience, the owners of these stores (I am sure there are exceptions) don't care about giving proper information on care and husbandry, they care about their profit margins. To give an example: a local pet store sells snakes and other reptiles, I was looking for a part-time job that I would enjoy and because of my experience with most of the species of snakes he sold, he hired me on. However, whenever I gave a customer good advice on husbandry, I would get pulled aside and told to say something different. "Why", you ask?? Because the proper advice that I gave on the care of these beautiful creatures did not always make him the most $$. I was told to "stop thinking like a breeder and to start thinking like a sales person" I don't think I need to add that I no longer work there, I have gone back into the office where I make $$, and I keep my collection of snakes, I breed them, aiming for the morphs I WANT to create, and they are properly cared for.

IMO...... MISINFORMATION (whether purposeful or not) is what needs to be changed and bettered in this hobby, not whether or not X and Y person(s) are breeding morphs rather than Normals.

[AussieSnake]

I don't argue that the original gene occurred naturally in an individual snake, however I believe the first jag was bred overseas, not in Australia, so therefore it was through a selective breeding process in captivity. If this mating was to occur naturally in the wild (which I doubt), I don't think you would have too many surviving. As stated, I'm no expert, just my 2 cents.

Anyway this is off subject from the thread, sorry for any derailing.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Snakefood

WOW, what a read!! I have actually read every post here and here is my personal opinion.

I LOVE MORPHS!!!! I love Cornsnake morphs, I love Ball Python morphs, I love Boa morphs, I think they are beautiful and yes, I do breed them. I breed for the ones I find beautiful, different and amazing. Now if someone else likes them and buys them from me, great!! I don't care what is the "most popular" I breed what catches my eye!!

I personally think that this hobby would be incredibly boring if there were only the "normal" in any species.

I feel for those of you who's local expo's are over-run by one species, thankfully our local expo is extremely varied, We get to see many different species of snakes, Gecko's, lizards, frogs and Arachnids. I guess we're just lucky that way.

As for morph's being "man-made" that is ridiculous!! The originals of these "morphs" are genetic anomalies in the wild, captured and bred into the captive population. The most recent that I am aware of is the "Palmetto Corn", a fully grown, mature male was captured IN THE WILD, and bought by a breeder who then bred that male into his captive collection. (again, my opinion, these Palmettos are GORGEOUS!!)

To answer the original question of "My view of the reptile Hobby": My view is that individual people all have individual ideas of what they love about their chosen species, and that is what makes us such a varied population. And I love it!!

"What would I change??" well I can't remember who actually said it (it was many pages ago now!) but I would change the way pet stores sell their reptiles. In my personal experience, the owners of these stores (I am sure there are exceptions) don't care about giving proper information on care and husbandry, they care about their profit margins. To give an example: a local pet store sells snakes and other reptiles, I was looking for a part-time job that I would enjoy and because of my experience with most of the species of snakes he sold, he hired me on. However, whenever I gave a customer good advice on husbandry, I would get pulled aside and told to say something different. "Why", you ask?? Because the proper advice that I gave on the care of these beautiful creatures did not always make him the most $$. I was told to "stop thinking like a breeder and to start thinking like a sales person" I don't think I need to add that I no longer work there, I have gone back into the office where I make $$, and I keep my collection of snakes, I breed them, aiming for the morphs I WANT to create, and they are properly cared for.

IMO...... MISINFORMATION (whether purposeful or not) is what needs to be changed and bettered in this hobby, not whether or not X and Y person(s) are breeding morphs rather than Normals.

Great post! You and I have differing opinions but I won't chastise you for them! It's all about discussion and I just started this thread to know where people's heads are at about this topic.

[Snakefood]

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

Great post! You and I have differing opinions but I won't chastise you for them! It's all about discussion and I just started this thread to know where people's heads are at about this topic.

Well, that's where my head is at, some will call me selfish for breeding the morphs I find attractive....koodos for them, that's their opinion and everyone is welcome to have one!!

Don't get me wrong, I love the normals too, I have an Okeetee Corn (which is actually considered a normal, (and NO I don't know if it is a Locality Okeetee or not) And I have 2 Columbian Red tail Boa's, and I have 5 Normal BP's in my collection. But I also have some AMAZING morph BP's and am gearing up for 2 awesome projects with Cornsnakes!! (Oh and I would so love a Salmon Boa..... GORGEOUS!!)

[CosmicOwl]

The only thing that bugs me about morphs is when people breed them just to throw as many morphs into an animal as possible. Think about how many corn snakes are just a slightly different version of pink. It would nice to see more people selecting localities and line breeding animals to get things like the extreme Okeetees, which have a really distinctive look.

[Snakefood]

But it isn't always about throwing as many morphs into one snake, it is (at least for me) what morphs is it going to take to reach my goal, sometimes it's two, sometimes it's 4. Sometimes it takes one generation, sometimes it takes 3. I really like high contrast snakes, which is why I like the Okeetee and Palmetto Corns. Although I also really like the Coral snows and Orchids, which even though they don't have a lot of contrast, their coloring is beautiful.

There is one BP morph that I have only seen one person produce, In some future season, I would like to start on that project, it is going to take 4 different morphs and 3 generations, but I believe it will be worth it in the end. I don't care how many morphs' genes are in the snake, be it 1 or 5, I just love the colors/patterns that are in the one snake that comes out in the end!!

[smy_749]

Morphs are man-made after you go past the basic morphs. There is 0% chance you would get high-way ball python or a Puma or whatever else, I can't think of complicated morphs off the top of my head but you get the point. Multiple gene animals like we see in the industry have a TINY chance of occurring naturally. Yellow gene and blue gene are wild, making painting on a canvas with yellow/blue/green/(whatever else those combinations can make) in a striped or banded pattern is different.