Your view of the reptile hobby

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Yes. She brought aspects in because she felt they would help her argument. You then told her she can't use them to support her argument. So yes I am correct. Thank you.

I never told her she couldn't use those factors, but I am saying it doesn't logically follow to use them.

What do those aspects have to do with just keeping reptiles? How does putting a cornsnake in a 4x2x2 cause inbreeding?

See my point?

Again it's no assumption. You're comparing apples to oranges. Compare apples to apples. Humans are not apples in this case.

It is in fact an assumption and an accusation(Accusing me for trying to be sneaky), there is no way getting around it. You could have saved me the trouble by going back to read my reasoning for asking the question. I said it was a side question not meant to be part of my argument, I just wanted to see how she applies that logic when it comes to humans.

You asked why being selfish is wrong. Quite simply it's because selfish is a trait that is widely accepted as a negative trait. Ergo it's wrong to be selfish.

Like I said you're now at the definition of selfish to prove a point. You've lost...

Well I guess I don't have much else to say then. To me wrong = bad... usually meaning someone/something suffers.

If I am being selfish and nothing suffers I don't see how it's wrong. So I will agree to disagree on why selfish automatically makes something wrong.

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by CosmicOwl

In what way? Do you think a snake living in the wild that has to avoid predators and hunt for food is less stressed and more healthy than one kept under good conditions in captivity?

Also, I never said that I think it's good to keep snakes in captivity. I simply don't think it's inherently bad or selfish.

Healthier? Maybe but captivity doesn't equal health. If the conditions are good and the animal is taken care of it doesn't make it any less selfish. But it does make it tolerable. The animal isn't suffering at least

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

You didn't make any reply to pointing out that you brought in irrelevant arguments to try and help you.

Everything else is just noise.

Back to the actual argument. Which you clearly don't really have one.

In fact I did. I go over these points in my last few posts you just need to read them.

Everything else isn't just noise, you're just getting into a hissy fit and resorting to ad-hominem. If you can't argue without doing that I'll stop right here.

[CosmicOwl]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

That's a silly argument, isn't it?

How can you even make the point that an animal living in the wild is unhealthy and stressed out. Have you seen any studies to suggest this?

Have you even seen many animals in captivity? I have seen dozens of animals stressed out in captivity. In fact I would even gamble that more animals die from stress in captivity than in the wild.

I'm not. I'm simply saying that "the wild" isn't inherently a better place for all reptiles.

I'll agree with your point that plenty of animals are stressed in captivity. However, it's hard to say captivity itself is bad, and not individual factors of captivity such as husbandry and diet. I've also acknowledged that a lot of species simply should not be kept in captivity for the aforementioned reasons. This is why I've been trying to keep my argument focused on animals that are housed under good conditions.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

I said it was a side question not meant to be part of my argument, I just wanted to see how she applies that logic when it comes to humans...

If it's not part of the argument how is it irrelevant? Sounds more like a PM question then.

Thanks for proving my point how you were the only one allowed to bring irrelevant information to the thread.

No one else was. Not even if it's about the hobby YOU asked about improving. You can't pick and choose what people can or can't talk about it when discussing the hobby.

I said it pages ago. The hobby is what someone makes it. You're again pushing your standard of what the hobby means in regards to breeding, inbreeding or morphs or whatever... It's all apart of it and you can't take the pieces you only wish to discuss.

That's my point. You certainly are showing you have a different agenda than when you started. Why not come out and tell us what point you're trying to make everyone say?

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by CosmicOwl

I'm not. I'm simply saying that "the wild" isn't inherently a better place for all reptiles.

I'll agree with your point that plenty of animals are stressed in captivity. However, it's hard to say captivity itself is bad, and not individual factors of captivity such as husbandry and diet. I've also acknowledged that a lot of species simply should not be kept in captivity for the aforementioned reasons. This is why I've been trying to keep my argument focused on animals that are housed under good conditions.

You're then trying to make the argument not about the hobby and how it is as a whole but about a certain aspect. Ignoring other factors.

It's fine if that's what you want to talk about but that isn't what this debate was originally intended for.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

If it's not part of the argument how is it irrelevant? Sounds more like a PM question then.

Thanks for proving my point how you were the only one allowed to bring irrelevant information to the thread.

Yes an irrelevant question, which is exactly the reason why I said it wasn't part of my argument....don't know how many times I have to clarify.

In Lori's case she used irrelevant factors such as inbreeding as part of her argument.

No one else was. Not even if it's about the hobby YOU asked about improving. You can't pick and choose what people can or can't talk about it when discussing the hobby.

Of course I can't pick and choose what people can/can't talk about. I never told anyone not to talk about something.

I'm just asking what does inbreeding have to do with "why is keeping reptiles wrong"?

I said it pages ago. The hobby is what someone makes it. You're again pushing your standard of what the hobby means in regards to breeding, inbreeding or morphs or whatever... It's all apart of it and you can't take the pieces you only wish to discuss.

my point. You certainly are showing you have a different agenda than when you started. Why not come out and tell us what point you're trying to make everyone say?

Not at all. I gave my views on the first few pages of what I think about the hobby. My discussion with Lori had nothing to do with those views. It was mainly me asking the same question over and over again, until she finally decided to answer it directly.

[smy_749]

The fact of the matter is this is not one hobby, in my opinion. Herping is much different than keeping. They share the same interests, like how race-car drivers and mechanics do, but they are not the same hobby. Likewise, I don't consider myself to be in the same hobby as ball python breeders. Nothing against ball python breeders, but I see the two as apples and oranges. To each his own

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by smy_749

The fact of the matter is this is not one hobby, in my opinion. Herping is much different than keeping. They share the same interests, like how race-car drivers and mechanics do, but they are not the same hobby. Likewise, I don't consider myself to be in the same hobby as ball python breeders. Nothing against ball python breeders, but I see the two as apples and oranges. To each his own

Could you elaborate on what you mean by herping vs keeping?

[CosmicOwl]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

You're then trying to make the argument not about the hobby and how it is as a whole but about a certain aspect. Ignoring other factors.

It's fine if that's what you want to talk about but that isn't what this debate was originally intended for.

This thread strayed from its original intent as soon as Lori decided to claim the moral high ground while accusing others of claiming the moral high ground.

Regardless of the intent of this discussion, my argument has only been that I don't see a moral basis for keepers getting rid of all of their animals. I don't think it is inherently selfish to keep reptiles in captivity, but I believe it becomes selfish when one starts to treat them like objects to be hoarded or if they neglect the care required by the animal.

The truth is, morality is not an all or nothing issue. If it were, anybody who had killed another person would be sent to jail for life(because killing is wrong), regardless of whether it was murder or self defense. However, we don't do that because we understand that various factors effect the morality of an issue. Likewise, I feel that keeping animals in captivity is morally neutral, but can become immoral depending upon the circumstances.

[Tsubaki]

Hmm...

Domesticated animals have been domesticated for our convenience (work/food) However 'pets' are only here because we Like them. Yes i believe keeping any animal as a pet (now leaving farm and working animals aside) is always purely for your own content. Therefor, Selfish. - Think about it, if you did not like animals.. Would you own any?- No you would not, because you do not need them to survive. So keeping pets is always for your own hobby/pleasure. And do i feel guilty for keeping an animal as a pet, even though i just clearly stated i think it is selfish? No i do not, and here is why.

Non-domesticated animals like reptiles can be justified as pets, the same way other animals are. That they do not bond with humans like domesticated animals do, does not change that keeping Any pet is basically selfish. Domesticated animals like dogs need bonding to thrive, snakes do not need it. Simple as that. So i do not see much difference between keeping reptiles or other animals, as long as they are cared for and housed in the best way possible. Basically: As long as the animals thrive in captivity, i do not see any difficulty with it. What i do have problems with, are animals who are clearly Not cut out to be kept in captivity. Like the stated before, Orca. Orca's do not thrive and are clearly not the kind of animal that should be kept captive, so there is no way you can justify keeping them in captivity if you ask me.

Thinking about it, we take away the same privileges from any animal we decide to keep as pet. And they gain the same privileges, if they are kept properly.
They gain: Stable environment, stable food supply, (medical) attention.
They lose: (Full) Freedom to roam, find their own mate, being their own boss.

All my statements are with one thing in mind, that we try to house and care for the animals to the VERY best of our abilities. And that they thrive in this good care. Anyone not caring for an animal to the best of their abilities, and only keeping them to show off.. Is just an **** in my book, and should simply not own animals. But since i do not identify in that description, ill continue enjoying caring for these marvelous beings to the best of my abilities. I do not feel any more guilty for my snake(s), than i do for my dog. I do not love them the same, but i do however love to own them both. Because i am selfish like that

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

Could you elaborate on what you mean by herping vs keeping?

Going out and looking for wild reptiles in their natural habitats, vs keeping them in the house. I think they are different hobbies.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Tsubaki

Hmm...

Domesticated animals have been domesticated for our convenience (work/food) However 'pets' are only here because we Like them. Yes i believe keeping any animal as a pet (now leaving farm and working animals aside) is always purely for your own content. Therefor, Selfish. - Think about it, if you did not like animals.. Would you own any?- No you would not, because you do not need them to survive. So keeping pets is always for your own hobby/pleasure. And do i feel guilty for keeping an animal as a pet, even though i just clearly stated i think it is selfish? No i do not, and here is why.

Non-domesticated animals like reptiles can be justified as pets, the same way other animals are. That they do not bond with humans like domesticated animals do, does not change that keeping Any pet is basically selfish. Domesticated animals like dogs need bonding to thrive, snakes do not need it. Simple as that. So i do not see much difference between keeping reptiles or other animals, as long as they are cared for and housed in the best way possible. Basically: As long as the animals thrive in captivity, i do not see any difficulty with it. What i do have problems with, are animals who are clearly Not cut out to be kept in captivity. Like the stated before, Orca. Orca's do not thrive and are clearly not the kind of animal that should be kept captive, so there is no way you can justify keeping them in captivity if you ask me.

Thinking about it, we take away the same privileges from any animal we decide to keep as pet. And they gain the same privileges, if they are kept properly.
They gain: Stable environment, stable food supply, (medical) attention.
They lose: (Full) Freedom to roam, find their own mate, being their own boss.

All my statements are with one thing in mind, that we try to house and care for the animals to the VERY best of our abilities. And that they thrive in this good care. Anyone not caring for an animal to the best of their abilities, and only keeping them to show off.. Is just an **** in my book, and should simply not own animals. But since i do not identify in that description, ill continue enjoying caring for these marvelous beings to the best of my abilities. I do not feel any more guilty for my snake(s), than i do for my dog. I do not love them the same, but i do however love to own them both. Because i am selfish like that

Thanks for the input.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by smy_749

Going out and looking for wild reptiles in their natural habitats, vs keeping them in the house. I think they are different hobbies.

Didn't know you meant field herping by that, nevermind.

[Donnie]

Originally Posted by formica

hmm perhaps its another EU country, will look it up tomorrow



offtopic - do you guys really not like the name Holland? whys that? never knew, its the common name we use, except formally

Holland is an area not a country (anymore) and most people who use it do so in the context of it being a country which I think would get annoying for the inhabitants of the other regions of the Netherlands. It's like somebody saying they are going to the West Midlands when they mean England.


sorry all, you can carry on on topic now