Please Help - Cat Bullying

[Abraxxos]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Longest thread hyjack I have seen in a while.
So can anyone actually help the OP now ?
Do you even remember the question?

Yup. Started out asking about ways to end the violence between her cats.

My boyfriend had the input that he got his two males to stop fighting by spraying them with water whenever they did it. Senn his cats. Worked beautifully.

I'm of the opinion e-collars are good way to go but then Formica here decided to get offended and appalled by something he doesn't actually know about. I tried educating him. Didn't work. Won't listen.

[Terranaut]

Although I personaly would consider the e-collar maybe it's time to just agree to disagree ?

[Abraxxos]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Although I personally would consider the e-collar maybe it's time to just agree to disagree ?

Might as well. Gets annoying, though, when somebody thinks it's bad just because they disagree and wrongly assume.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Abraxxos

Yup. Started out asking about ways to end the violence between her cats.

My boyfriend had the input that he got his two males to stop fighting by spraying them with water whenever they did it. Senn his cats. Worked beautifully.

I'm of the opinion e-collars are good way to go but then Formica here decided to get offended and appalled by something he doesn't actually know about. I tried educating him. Didn't work. Too dense. Won't listen.

I know that they have been banned in several countries as inhumane, I know that science has proven negative reinforcement to be damaging to animals in the long run, I know that in the UK professional dog handlers consider them to be abuse and dangerous for the long term psychological welfare of the animal, I know that they can cause displaced aggression in some (eg random attacks on children), i know plenty more things about them, without having to abuse my cats with them to find out first hand.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Although I personaly would consider the e-collar maybe it's time to just agree to disagree ?

I did suggest that several times - despite my strong feelings on the subject.

[Abraxxos]

Originally Posted by formica

I know that they have been banned in several countries as inhumane, I know that science has proven negative reinforcement to be damaging to animals in the long run, I know that in the UK professional dog handlers consider them to be abuse and dangerous for the long term psychological welfare of the animal, I know that they can cause displaced aggression in some (eg random attacks on children), i know plenty more things about them, without having to abuse my cats with them to find out first hand.

You still don't know the feeling of the collar. You still don't that it's actually negative. There are many different type of e collars. I'll say it again for the umpteenth time. E collar does not mean shock collar.

Obviously the handlers using them don't know how to use them. Go back and watch the video I posted. Tell me that's a dog that's being abused. Tell me that's a dog that is unhappy. Tell me that's a dog in fear of the collar. Tell me that's a dog that only works with the collar on and is being damaged. Any action done incorrectly will have negative lash back. Treat train your dog too much and they'll get obese. Verbal command your dog too much and they'll stop listening. Get a shock collar and zap your dog and yeah it's gunna get a little antsy. But, again, these aren't shock collars. We aren't electrocuting the animals.

Your country banning something doesn't mean or prove much at all. Russia just passed a law making it legal to jail anybody who supports gays. Doesn't make it right.

I am seriously not trying to fight with you. I'm trying my damndest to help you understand but you have got to work with me. If what is said falls on deaf ears no progress is made.

(Literally I know. Deaf dog in the house)

[formica]

Originally Posted by Abraxxos

You still don't know the feeling of the collar. You still don't that it's actually negative. There are many different type of e collars. I'll say it again for the umpteenth time. E collar does not mean shock collar.

Obviously the handlers using them don't know how to use them. Go back and watch the video I posted. Tell me that's a dog that's being abused. Tell me that's a dog that is unhappy. Tell me that's a dog in fear of the collar. Tell me that's a dog that only works with the collar on and is being damaged. Any action done incorrectly will have negative lash back. Treat train your dog too much and they'll get obese. Verbal command your dog too much and they'll stop listening. Get a shock collar and zap your dog and yeah it's gunna get a little antsy. But, again, these aren't shock collars. We aren't electrocuting the animals.

Your country banning something doesn't mean or prove much at all. Russia just passed a law making it legal to jail anybody who supports gays. Doesn't make it right.

so if you are not passing an electric current thru the animals neck, what are you doing? try and give me a straight answer...

and stop patronizing me, I am entitled to my opinion, and it does not need to be 'educated', espcially considering the vast body of evidence against these collars

[formica]

you can call a Spade whatever you like, but its still a spade.



Are Shock Collars Painful or Just Annoying to Dogs?* A 2004 Study Reveals Some Answers | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/down...ence-Paper.pdf

Shotgun Life - Expert Dog Trainer Robert Milner Says Heck No to Shock Collars

Shock Collars - The Shocking Truth | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

http://www.rspca.org.uk/ImageLocator...13325&mode=prd

Latest report on Shock Collars

Defra, UK - Science Search

Defra, UK - Science Search

[Abraxxos]

Originally Posted by formica

so if you are not passing an electric current thru the animals neck, what are you doing? try and give me a straight answer...

and stop patronizing me, I am entitled to my opinion, and it does not need to be 'educated', espcially considering the vast body of evidence against these collars

Dude. For the last time.... An electrical current does not hurt. Your entire body runs off of electrical currents. If there were no electrical currents in your body you would be dead. There is a difference between an electrical current that is pos to neg and pos pos or neg neg. Pos to neg is not painful. I'm not saying you need to put the collar on your dog or cat. I'm saying YOU need to put the collar on yourself. It's like getting a tattoo or piercing. You can't tell somebody whether it hurts or not until you've had one. You assume it hurts because if it made sense, it would hurt. But assuming something doesn't make it an actual fact. Assumptions are guesses. These are not shock collars. Do you have any idea what so ever how electricity works? I'm really starting to doubt any actually general education if you can't understand that electricity is not always damaging/painful. You do need to be educated. You need to be educated because you continue to talk about something.

Would you be happy if I started giving advice to a frog keeper (I dont keep frogs. I don't know things about frogs. I have no experience with frogs.) acting like I have a ton of experience and know everything? No. You wouldn't. You'd be all 'man stfu you don't know what you're talking about that is horrible advice stop' Paraphrasing, obviously but... point made. You wouldn't be happy and any one here who keeps frog s would also be very against me speaking because i have no clue. I can't give advice on something when I have no clue. IF you're going to sit here and talk about these things like you know what you're talking about, learn about it. Experience it for yourself. Then pass judgement on if that's painful or not. It isn't painful. It's just surprising. I have been hit by a taser. I have played with actual shock collars. These are not shock collars.

[Abraxxos]

Do you know what a tense unit is? Completely serious question. Have you ever been to a chiropractor and had a tense unit used on you?

[formica]

read the articals, the first one clearly shows how the collars where used and how they affected the animals. you cant seriously be saying that groups like the RSPCA, DEFRA and the Kennel Club UK know less about this than you do. The evidence is all there, should you choose to investigate it for yourself, rather than sticking to a belief that is founded only in your own limited experience.

and FYI, the most powerful electrical currents in the human body, in the heart operate at less than 150mV at less than 10 nanoampres, that current is miniscule compared to a 9V battery which can deliver 0.5amps, delivered fast enough it can be more than that, that is thousands of times more current than a human nerve.

[Amadeus]

Originally Posted by formica

read the articals, the first one clearly shows how the collars where used and how they affected the animals. you cant seriously be saying that groups like the RSPCA, DEFRA and the Kennel Club UK know less about this than you do. The evidence is all there, should you choose to investigate it for yourself, rather than sticking to a belief that is founded only in your own limited experience.

and FYI, the most powerful electrical currents in the human body, in the heart operate at less than 150mV at less than 10 nanoampres, that current is miniscule compared to a 9V battery which can deliver 0.5amps, delivered fast enough it can be more than that, that is thousands of times more current than a human nerve.

Ok look up how much current goes from the brain through to the spinal cord.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

Ok look up how much current goes from the brain through to the spinal cord.

why dont post up the refrence to the number that you have? or have you not found one?

besides, nerve cells are insulated, it is not an uncontrolled current surging randomly thru the bodies tissues, as is the case with an electrical current passed thru the skin. Nerve pulses are very short, very low voltage and very low current, they are not constant.

[Amadeus]

Originally Posted by formica

why dont post up the refrence to the number that you have? or have you not found one?

besides, nerve cells are insulated, it is not an uncontrolled current surging randomly thru the bodies tissues, as is the case with an electrical current passed thru the skin. Nerve pulses are very short, very low voltage and very low current, they are not constant.

Forget the biological debate.

Are you still arguing about negative reinforcement or do you think it is inhumane to use shock/e-collars? Dude do you actually think these animals are fragile enough for a tiny amount of current to injure them or do you just think you are better than someone who uses these products. Have you ever been shocked by electricity? A 9 volt battery on your tongue tingles. A shock from 12 volts stings. A car battery will make whatever part you touched it with numb for a few hours.

How much current does an e-collar actually give to the animal? Seriously. I'd like to know.

[infernalis]

take it up on a cat or dog forum.....

this is a reptile forum...

Thanks.