Killing Live prey

[Pirarucu]

Originally Posted by smy_749

But I wouldn't call the plague, extinction of native species, and whatever other disasters humane,

I'm going to go on a tangent for a moment.

While I agree that the Plague was not humane, the bottom line is that it was necessary. People became too overpopulated and were suffering from overcrowding, they didn't have enough food, etc, etc. Then the Plague came along and took out a percentage of the population. That left the survivors with lots of space, they had plenty of food and resources, and they flourished because of it. Most historians refer to the Black Death as something that occurred at the end of the Middle Ages. They don't make the connection. It did not just occur; it was the biological event that ended the Middle Ages. When the survivors were left with everything they needed, human innovation and advancements in technology took off, and a period of prosperity ensued, and there was an economic boom, which culminated in the Renaissance.

Something very similar is going to happen soon, and anyone who is paying attention can see it coming. We are so overpopulated that as a species we are weakened, and the further we push into the rainforests, the more chance we have of coming into contact with a virus that could jump from one species into ours, and the more crowded we are, are the easier it will be to spread from one person to another. It's already started happening. The AIDS virus is sweeping the globe. Breakouts of pathogens such as Ebola or Lassa are becoming ever more frequent. The problem with these is that they don't do their job well enough. They either don't spread easily, or they kill their hosts before they have a chance to infect more people. Soon we'll run into something (or release something) that doesn't have those constraints. A strain of Ebola exists which is airborne, but it only infects monkeys. It is incredibly similar to a strain that is extremely lethal in humans, so much so that you can't easily tell the difference. One small mutation and we could have an airborne strain of Ebola sweeping through the human species. On the other hand, it could be something released from a lab. Imagine if a weaponized strain of smallpox were let loose. Even the natural strain would go on a massive burn through the human species. If a release was done in a large city, planes would carry it all over the planet in a matter of days, and everyone's immunity to it has long since worn off.
No matter how it starts, the human species is going to have a major die off soon, and ultimately it will be a good thing. There will be new advances in technology, and a new economic boom, and nature will have reestablished the balance... And there won't be a thing we can do about it. The only thing we could do would be to prevent it by keeping our population under control, which we know won't be done.. So there you have it. Sorry about that, LOL. I have to make a big long post every now and again..

[V87]

Originally Posted by Starbuck

I have a bachelors degree in entomology.
YES inverts do have a completely different nervous system.
NO most inverts are not social/don't have emotions like fear/anger/etc

YES invertebrate animals do feel pain. They will move away from painful stimuli, like heat, sharp objects, etc. and yes they will also react to limb amputation. Sure, their nervous systems are not as advanced as mammals, but they do react to these stimuli.
As for the parasites in caterpillars etc, i would say that is more of a kudos to the parasite than a short-coming of the caterpillar
These parasites attack very specific parts of the insect host, preventing autoimmune responses, hijacking the nervous system forcing it to keep eating/growing. Many of our captive herps have parasites that never cause a problem/are evident such as low levels of GI invaders, the occasional tick on a wild caught animal... We never say it is because the reptile isn't feeling pain, but rather that the parasite is too sophisticated, and is itself focused on self preservation

There is evidence that bees, ants, and spiders can learn to associate certain stimuli with good things (i.e. if i land on this green platform and stay for 4 seconds food will appear), so it makes sense that they could do the same, and learn to avoid things which indicate negative stimuli (being eaten).
Beyond that, i think every animal on this planet has some degree of get-up-and-go when it comes to predator detection and self preservation.

Good stuff ... I stand corrected ....


It's all moni food to me ....

[smy_749]

that was a good post, I didn't think about it as a 'benefit' because it sounds so evil but your right. I think we are going to just have a massive nuclear war though :P

And starbuck, with regards to self preservation, you can exclude humans from that hahahaah Half the stuff people put in their body is ....well not good stuff. lol

[infernalis]

Too many defenses in place for an effective nuclear strike campaign. NORAD / etc.. are all scouring for missiles, rockets, nuclear signatures, etc.

A rapidly replicating single cell organism can do so much more and all the military anti rocket equipment, drones and lasers cannot stop it.

You can shoot down a missile.. But that tourists that just ate a bowl of "jungle stew" in Bolivia and then flew home to Miami and coughed in a shopping mall, how do you shoot him down when you don't even know he's a biological weapon?

[infernalis]

What if AIDS spread like a common cold rather than requiring blood contact?? it would be just like a Stephen King novel. (The Stand)

The only humans left alive would be the few that have the genetic defect that renders them immune. (too lazy to look it up again, but there are people who are AIDS immune)

Something about lacking an enzyme that the AIDS virus needs to attach to their DNA strands. It's some sort of protein deficiency...

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by infernalis

Too many defenses in place for an effective nuclear strike campaign. NORAD / etc.. are all scouring for missiles, rockets, nuclear signatures, etc.

A rapidly replicating single cell organism can do so much more and all the military anti rocket equipment, drones and lasers cannot stop it.

You can shoot down a missile.. But that tourists that just ate a bowl of "jungle stew" in Bolivia and then flew home to Miami and coughed in a shopping mall, how do you shoot him down when you don't even know he's a biological weapon?

Good point, but I don't think that any country is completely invincible to attack, even us.

[Pirarucu]

Originally Posted by infernalis

Too many defenses in place for an effective nuclear strike campaign. NORAD / etc.. are all scouring for missiles, rockets, nuclear signatures, etc.

A rapidly replicating single cell organism can do so much more and all the military anti rocket equipment, drones and lasers cannot stop it.

You can shoot down a missile.. But that tourists that just ate a bowl of "jungle stew" in Bolivia and then flew home to Miami and coughed in a shopping mall, how do you shoot him down when you don't even know he's a biological weapon?

Bingo. Nuclear weapons are too localized, even if a nuclear war did occur, (and it won't, for the reasons Wayne brought up) the impact on our species as a whole would be minuscule.

[Pirarucu]

Originally Posted by infernalis

What if AIDS spread like a common cold rather than requiring blood contact?? it would be just like a Stephen King novel. (The Stand)

The only humans left alive would be the few that have the genetic defect that renders them immune. (too lazy to look it up again, but there are people who are AIDS immune)

Something about lacking an enzyme that the AIDS virus needs to attach to their DNA strands. It's some sort of protein deficiency...

This is the reason why biological agents are so beneficial. They never wipe out a population, they only thin it.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by smy_749

Good point, but I don't think that any country is completely invincible to attack, even us.

It has already been proven, a covert terrorist act inflicts as much if not more damage than a calculated military strike.

And terrorists prey on collateral damage, so they make bloodier messes.

Here's the 411 - if those idiots are willing to come to America, go to our colleges and gain an American education just to go meet 72 virgins in the afterlife, then what makes you think they are incapable of shooting up with a virus and going to a few music festivals or peace rallies??

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

This is the reason why biological agents are so beneficial. They never wipe out a population, they only thin it.

It poses some interesting thoughts though.

Throughout history, these events thinned populations, but survivors often banded into groups and a period of struggle would follow.

The really strong and resourceful quickly rise to positions of power, Think about it, one lone immune man inherits a military base...

Further thinning ensues.

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by Starbuck

I have a bachelors degree in entomology.
YES inverts do have a completely different nervous system.
NO most inverts are not social/don't have emotions like fear/anger/etc

YES invertebrate animals do feel pain. They will move away from painful stimuli, like heat, sharp objects, etc. and yes they will also react to limb amputation. Sure, their nervous systems are not as advanced as mammals, but they do react to these stimuli.
As for the parasites in caterpillars etc, i would say that is more of a kudos to the parasite than a short-coming of the caterpillar
These parasites attack very specific parts of the insect host, preventing autoimmune responses, hijacking the nervous system forcing it to keep eating/growing. Many of our captive herps have parasites that never cause a problem/are evident such as low levels of GI invaders, the occasional tick on a wild caught animal... We never say it is because the reptile isn't feeling pain, but rather that the parasite is too sophisticated, and is itself focused on self preservation

There is evidence that bees, ants, and spiders can learn to associate certain stimuli with good things (i.e. if i land on this green platform and stay for 4 seconds food will appear), so it makes sense that they could do the same, and learn to avoid things which indicate negative stimuli (being eaten).
Beyond that, i think every animal on this planet has some degree of get-up-and-go when it comes to predator detection and self preservation.

well what do you know we learn something new everyday.

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by infernalis

It has already been proven, a covert terrorist act inflicts as much if not more damage than a calculated military strike.

And terrorists prey on collateral damage, so they make bloodier messes.

Here's the 411 - if those idiots are willing to come to America, go to our colleges and gain an American education just to go meet 72 virgins in the afterlife, then what makes you think they are incapable of shooting up with a virus and going to a few music festivals or peace rallies??

Well I'm not gonna get into the whole terrorism thing. Nobody would deny that what happened on 9/11 etc. is terrorism. But I personally believe (don't get mad at me, its just my opinion) that we (those living in the U.S.A) are much, much, much worse with regards to bloody messes. Count the american soldier casualties, then count the Iraqi , Afghani, (go back far enough) japanese, native american, african american, casualties.....the numbers don't match. And most of the time the response I get is " if you don't like it than leave" and believe me, I plan on it once my dad gets off my back about finishing college.

[Pirarucu]

Originally Posted by smy_749

Well I'm not gonna get into the whole terrorism thing. Nobody would deny that what happened on 9/11 etc. is terrorism. But I personally believe (don't get mad at me, its just my opinion) that we (those living in the U.S.A) are much, much, much worse with regards to bloody messes. Count the american soldier casualties, then count the Iraqi , Afghani, (go back far enough) japanese, native american, african american, casualties.....the numbers don't match. And most of the time the response I get is " if you don't like it than leave" and believe me, I plan on it once my dad gets off my back about finishing college.

Agreed, the US is a warmongering nation. We've spent a total of twenty-one years during which we were not at war. Those statistics speak for themselves, and they're part of the reason we have terrorist organizations targeting us..

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

Agreed, the US is a warmongering nation. We've spent a total of twenty-one years during which we were not at war. Those statistics speak for themselves, and they're part of the reason we have terrorist organizations targeting us..

Although we could delve into this much further, we are getting way way way off topic, I just realized that when I saw "re: killing live prey" at the top of my response hahaha

[Pirarucu]

Originally Posted by smy_749

Although we could delve into this much further, we are getting way way way off topic, I just realized that when I saw "re: killing live prey" at the top of my response hahaha

Only a little, LOL.

I always use cervical dislocation when dispatching prey items. It is quick and humane. Were I dispatching large numbers, I would put them in a cooler, put a bucket of water in, dump some dry ice in the water, and close the lid.