difference between eastern and western hognose snake?

[ashleynicole]

What is the difference between an eastern and western hognose? I read one of them has some venom but it is not harmful to humans? We really want a hognose but I do have young kids in the house so if there is any chance of them being dangerous I won't get them. Of course I am careful and enclosures are secure but anything could happen. Currently all of my snakes are safe to have around the kids (ball python, cornsnakes, and kingsnakes).

Thanks for any info you can provide. I've been googleing and getting conflicting information. Also which is the best for handling? I read they are pretty shy and rarely bite. (I have a 2012 florida kingsnake that likes to strike as soon as his container is open, but that's a hatchling for ya)

[Kavyrie]

I don't really know anything about eastern hognoses, but yes westerns do have venom. A bite is much like a beesting, localized pain and swelling but not nearly harmful enough to send you to the hospital unless you have an allergic reaction/let it chew on you for several minutes to keep pumping venom. Most bites from westerns are dry bites. And more often than that they do 'false bites' where they just smack you instead of biting. My western is a brat and hisses/puffs at me when I reach in to get him, but instantly stops once I pick him up. Other than that he is a sweet little guy, and as long as your kids are good with handling snakes I don't see any problem in getting one

[Gatorhunter1231]

All hogs are venomous I believe. Westerns are a bit easier to get to eat rodents and seem to do better in captivity (generally speaking). I havent had easterns yet but everyone at the shows and forums say they are notorius for being toad eaters and wont take anything else. You can also get cb western from breeders fairly easy.

[ashleynicole]

hmmm.. maybe I will get one of each? from what I am reading westerns require completely different husbandry and feeding schedules and easterns can be kept more like my corns and kings.

Can they both be kept on aspen bedding? are they both burrowers? Can westerns be fed feeder fish since they eat so often or are mice strictly recommended?

I want to learn as much as possible before the next reptile expo so I don't come home with something unprepared.

[Gatorhunter1231]

If you can get any hog to eat mice constantly then dont offer anything else. They get stuck on other food items in my experience. I feed my southens some fish once and then thats all they wanted. I keep my western just like my corns btw. Westerns do like to burrow around in loose substrate.

[Kavyrie]

I keep mine on aspen bedding which he loves, and I have to dig around to find him whenever I need/want to take him out lol. I haven't heard of them eating feeder fish, their typical diet is lizards and rodents. And I would assume mice are easier to come by, also that they are very picky and its hard to get them to eat mice, they get stuck on other foods easily. I keep my western just like my corn and he has been doing great since I got him, never refused a meal and is pretty active.

[StudentoReptile]

Easterns are extremely difficult to convert to a rodent diet. Unlike the westerns, they are NOT easy snakes to keep, and should only be left to those with the genuine interest, patience & dedication, as well as having a ready supply of toads for finicky eaters.

Their natural diet is mostly amphibians, toads being a common prey item. They may take lizards.

Substrate should be more on the humid side: cypress, repti-bark, coconut coir, damp soil & dead leaves.
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Westerns are much easier to deal with: they acclimate to captivity better, they convert to a rodent diet easier, and are also a little smaller than the easterns.

[jaleely]

I keep westerns. I to have heard that easterns are finicky eaters.
Westerns need humidity of no more than 50%, less if you can. Always a ready supply of water, and a temp of 82-88 degrees. They live in dry climates in the wild.
I also keep from usuing aspin bedding with mine, as they tend to burrow and will get it in their vent. Has happened to one of mine and other hognose keepers i know...which is weird, but there ya go.
Sani chips, or even just paper towels work fine. I have lots of hides and things for mine, and they seep pretty happy. If they get fussy, like during a shed, they will crawl under the paper towels. That's when i put in a moist moss filled tupperware and they crawl in. They tend to take longer than other species of snakes, to shed.

Both of mine are picky, but hearty eaters. One only wants fuzzy mice, brained, and presented to him from underneith him *lol* the other has decided he'll only eat fish, and will hiss and flare at anything else. They are sooooo cute! by far my favorite species of snake, with sand boas as a close second. They pack a *lot* of personality.

[Gregg M]

I do not mean to pick your post apart, but there is some stuff I highly disagree with.

Originally Posted by jaleely

I keep westerns. I to have heard that easterns are finicky eaters.

This I agree with but I can say from experience that they are very easy to convert over to rodents.

Originally Posted by jaleely

Westerns need humidity of no more than 50%, less if you can. Always a ready supply of water, and a temp of 82-88 degrees. They live in dry climates in the wild.

While they do come from arid areas in the wild, they still should have access to a humid spot in the cage at all times. In the wild, they spend a lot of time under ground where they humidity levels are high. Always offer a humidified hide spot.

Hogs should have a hot spot of 95 degrees and a cool side of around 80 degrees.

Originally Posted by jaleely

I also keep from usuing aspin bedding with mine, as they tend to burrow and will get it in their vent. Has happened to one of mine and other hognose keepers i know...which is weird, but there ya go.

It is wise to use a substrate when keeping a burrowing species like hogs. Aspen bedding is no less safe than sanichips. In fact aspen is preffered by most keepers. Snakes can get bedding in the vent and it usually it never causes any problems. Sometimes it can cause a little swelling but it is very rare. I would never keep hognose on paper towels ever.

[ashleynicole]

I am not a beginner, so I am up for a challenge if need be. Are easterns the ones that we find in florida? Or is a southern hognose different than an eastern hognose??? My husband and I enjoy keeping snakes that can be found in our area which is why we bought a florida kingsnake at the last expo.

I love taking care of my animals. I am familiar with making spagmum hides as my ball python requires one. My corns and kings do just fine as I live in florida and the humidity is perfect, they always shed without any issues. My ball python is on newspaper or papertowels, my corns and kings are on aspen. I have a bearded dragon who requires daily feeding of fresh greens and bugs, so I am up for a challenge if it is a rewarding species to keep.

Where would you buy toads for feeding if need be? I am thinking if you work hard enough to convert to mice then you should just stick with that feeder. My ball python took me 5 years to get him to eat frozen/thawed rats but mostly because I was too lazy to really put in the efforts. Once i was diligent about it he has bee eating frozen/thawed for the last two years without any problems.

Different websites give so much conflicting information. I am just trying to be as comprehensive as possible.
Thanks!

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by ashleynicole

I am not a beginner, so I am up for a challenge if need be. Are easterns the ones that we find in florida? Or is a southern hognose different than an eastern hognose???

Both easterns and southern hognose are found in Florida, although mostly in the northern parts if I recall.

I love taking care of my animals. ....I have a bearded dragon who requires daily feeding of fresh greens and bugs, so I am up for a challenge if it is a rewarding species to keep.

Finding fresh produce and feeder insects are much easier than finding feeder amphibians.

Where would you buy toads for feeding if need be?

There's a few dealers that may have large quantities. You'll have to do some calling and shopping around. Its a challenge, especially in the winter months.

I am thinking if you work hard enough to convert to mice then you should just stick with that feeder. My ball python took me 5 years to get him to eat frozen/thawed rats but mostly because I was too lazy to really put in the efforts. Once i was diligent about it he has bee eating frozen/thawed for the last two years without any problems.

For one thing, ball pythons are naturally rodent-eaters. Getting them to eat f/t white mice is not as much of a jump as getting a toad-eater to eat f/t white mice.

Like Gregg said, its not impossible, and there are a few tricks and techniques, but it is not easy. Like I said before, it is still a challenge.

I would contact Jenea Wood of Guardian Reptiles if you are truly interested in easterns. She has had decent success with them.

[jaleely]

GreggM! I got those specs from the Jhn R Berry Dsigner Morphs Western Hognose books...lol i have it right here by my chair : )
I think humidity and hot spots to vary based on your current climate, so sometimes i do keep it warmer in my snake room. I just figured i'd copy right out of the book.

My room is usually at about 30-50% humidity at all times. I used to keep a moist hidebox in there at all times, but recently have changed it out and only put it in when i suspect a shed.

as for paper towels...i am really curious! why not? easy clean up, and its much easier to see when they have poo'd or pee'd. I just couldn't find it well with sani chips, or aspin. And honestly i freaked out when there was a huge stick of aspin in my one snake's vent, and when i pulled it out, it had been jammed up in there VERY far. : ( I just don't want to trust the aspin.

i don't mind getting good advice from experienced breeders though, you know that! : ) I find that since i put more hides and "toys" in there with my guys they don't feel the need at all to 'burrow" under the paper towels. they've got a favorite hide on each end and thermoregulate back and forth.

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by jaleely

as for paper towels...i am really curious! why not? easy clean up, and its much easier to see when they have poo'd or pee'd. I just couldn't find it well with sani chips, or aspin. And honestly i freaked out when there was a huge stick of aspin in my one snake's vent, and when i pulled it out, it had been jammed up in there VERY far. : ( I just don't want to trust the aspin.

Like I said I really was not trying to pick your post apart. I hope you are not taking it that way. You are a good keeper and I always like reading your posts.

Personally, I feel that a burrowing species should have substrate to burrow in. You can keep hogs on paper towels and they will do fine. I just prefer to not keep them in sterile conditions with a flat surface as a substrate that they can not burrow in and display somewhat natural behaviors.

I do not think that paper towels are any cleaner than using aspen. In fact, your snakes are more prone to running through their waste when on paper towels than they are if they deficate in substrate.

As far as aspen getting in the vent goes, like I said it rarely, if ever becomes problematic. It happens to all of my males ever breeding season and I think I have ony had to remove it manually twices. They are quite capable of getting it out themselves.

With the humid hides, hogs, like all reptiles can become dehydrated over time if they do not have a place to go in order to retain moisture. Drinking water is not enough. They need to take it in and be able to keep it in. The only way they can do this is if they have a humid retreat. In he wild, they burrow down to where it is humid. In captivity, they should have a humidified hide. If you add one, you will notice how much they actually like to hang in humid spots.

[jaleely]

No didn't take it that way at all. I don't think you were picking it apart at all. I enjoy gleaning info from you! I'd rather have it right than do something not as right for my critters. Which is why i worry about the aspen. My biggest problem is i do get over protective of them. I had my hoggie, Copper, have that stuck in his vent...then months later he supposedly had a "plugged" scent gland. Seems to me it was the same spot he had the aspen stuck in. I just suspected infection from being poked there.

i do see what you mean about them crawling through the feces on the paper towel, though. I have one ball python that drives me crazy because he always pees a lot, and everywhere and then crawls all through it. For him i was going through substrate like crazy, so papertowels were just more economical. He was a rescue from the pound, and had been severely dehydrated and malnourished. Though he seems healthy now, he pees a *lot* so i suspect something is wrong with his kidneys.
Anyway...
I actually have a of trouble finding the best substrate for all my different species.

The hognose with the infected scent glad is the reason i've been removing the moisture/moss filled hides, and only putting them in when it's time to shed. I worried there was like a bacteria soup going on or something in there..i cleaned it, but he'd pee in there and then sit in it.

To kind of bring it back around to the OPs original information...what do you feed your westerns, and what experience do you have with easterns?
That hoggie that bit me was wanting the fish smell on my hands, and now he doesn't want anything else!
I've also heard that moving a species like hognose to rodents can be detrimental to them, because they don't process all of the rodent properly, like the hair, and can clog their intestines. Any truth to that?

[ashleynicole]

All of my colubrids have aspen, and while some aspen can be more coarse than others, the current bedding I am using is very soft and doesn't seem to have the harder sticks that I have seen in some brands. It is more of a shredded substrate, i think it is the zoomed aspen snake bedding. They burrow in it with no issues and I can scoop out the waste whenever they go, so I only have to clean out the entire tank once a month or so.


So is it my understanding that westerns are easier to handle, easier to feed than westerns or southerns?

I live in central florida, lake county to be exact, and have seen a few hognose snakes over the years. My family called them "puff adders" and always, Of course that's what I was taught as a kid, I grew up in a very rural area so we had to know how to identify snakes, I used to catch rat snakes in our field. So I was taught what a hognose was and the ones we usually see look similar to rattle snakes. I am not sure if these are the southern or the eastern ones.

Is there a place feeder toads can be ordered online? I order worms, crickets, etc online.

What kind of fish do you feed yours jaleely?