Question: Ethics in the reptile business - Page 4

V.aw · 01-23-03, 02:48 PM

Jeff i pm'd you some info.

Your point of keeping a boa in an enclosure of those dimensions is kind of beside the entire point. Your boa is fed, and fed well i presume. I Dont see how you feed an animal, and monitor it's well being when its kept with a billion others. Its very difficult.

My main point (which i think alot of you missed) is that the profit is put before the animals too often these days. I think in the huge fuss over whats worth what we forget about the well being of the animals. I also believe its extremely hard to get your point accross through text. So iam gonna stop this thread before i make an even bigger a$$ of myself.

NiagaraReptiles · 01-23-03, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by V.aw

My main point (which i think alot of you missed) is that the profit is put before the animals too often these days.

If you truely understood the reptile industry as much as you claim to, "having worked in 3 different pet stores.......", you would not have attributed/instigated this slanderous thread. Instead you've decided to point fingers at retail stores (one in particular) for some sort of self gratification. Get a grip on reality and don't talk about things that you haven't seen for yourself, nor even inquired about.

Without Grant there would be a bylaw in Toronto that would read "NO reptiles." I'm sure no one understands the effort he and very few followers went through to have this changed and settled on a reasonable bylaw.

Without Grant there would be a lot fewer private breeders. Instead of bashing w/c's and so on, why not think about why 90% of the store consists of CB baby snakes/lizards/etc. Did you also know that he spends more money buying from Canadian breeders in order to support the hobby here and not save a few bucks by bying them in the US?

Just the tip of the iceburg.........

tHeGiNo · 01-23-03, 05:11 PM

Ok, well I have just read every single post on this thread and thought I just HAD to post something. Alright, well being relatively knew into the herp community, I am not the most informed. I will state that I have heard slander about PCPC, from others not on this forum. I just thought I would say they are not all together a bad company, or to my perspective not a bad company at all! I had just recently purchased a CH Ball Python and besides the whopping price I paid of 190, lol, I am extremely pleased with the quality of the animal presented. He is feeding like a pig and is mite free. I couldn't be happier with my newly found friend, and thought I would just state that. I do not want to elaborate on anything anyone has said as I do not wish to flare up another argument. However I would like to say the following: before you slander a company as a whole, or an individual, think of what they do and put yourself in their position before you decide to trash talk. That is it

tHeGiNo · 01-23-03, 05:19 PM

Alright I apologize but I just had to say this. Grant is a great guy. I have only met him once but he seemed to be really nice. LOL I would have been done this post already but my snake was on my neck, then I noticed he no longer was LOL. He went for a little strole but now I found him. Anyhow, this goes directly to V.aw without any hesitation. If you think you could do a better job then Grant, then go ahead and show me. Until then, there is no need to refer trash talks directly at an individual or company.

rattekonigin · 01-23-03, 05:24 PM

You can't own a pet store and put the animals before the money, period. You need to turn a profit to stay open and the care of the animals has to take a certain cut-back as a result of this (ie. lack of quarantine, having too many animals, etc...) You've all stated this. So, I rest my case...the animals are not coming first. In the case of ANY business money comes first, point finale.

I've never been to the pet store in question, so I can't/won't make any comments regarding that particular situation.
BUT...
I, personally, don't believe that any pet stores should be allowed to sell animals at all. The vast majority do not take adequate care of their animals, they don't provide care infromation to would-be buyers, and they get their animals from dubious sources (ie. puppy mills...the stores say "breeders" and "local families" which are both factual statements, but these "local family breeders" run puppy mills!)...

And, from what I've read, V.aw wasn't slandering anybody...he merely stated his observations...he never bad-mouthed the proprietor of the store, it's not slander.

This thread has become a perfect example of what I mentioned in my last post...people jumping down other people's throats when they state an opinion that the dealer/breeder's supporters don't like...it's completely unecessary for you all to go off like this...State your countering opinion, but don't attack the guy just because he doesn't agree with you!

In Addendum: If it were the case, it wouldn't be slander, it would be libel...Also, I believe that in these situations, there has to be malicious intent behind the libel/slander.

slander
n.
Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.

libel
n.
A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation.
The act of presenting such material to the public.

paul_le_snake · 01-23-03, 07:57 PM

jeff, u said that ALL ball python breedres keep them in sweater boxes. well speaking about my personal work experiences..at work we have 3.7 breeder ball pythons that are right now being kept in 3 groups in 5x2x2 vivariums. not all breeders are dictated to by space.
cheers
paul
ps i'm not saying that keeping them in rubbermaids is a bad thing, but its the bare minimum. survival over thriving?

V.aw · 01-23-03, 09:22 PM

As far as slander goes here, i havent once said Grant isn't a good guy. I said his store is not to my standards, and i really disagree with alot of the things he does there. I never slandered anybody.

I have nothing personal against Grant. I stated, that the last time i was in there i saw some things i really didn't like. And i know quite a few people who share my opinion. I read Fred's post and it all came down to the one conclusion. I posted my opinion, and its the classic case of being pissed off about something you dont like to read and decide to join the "bandwagon" as some of you like to call it.

chappy · 01-23-03, 10:33 PM

thegino: dude I remember and it may still be there a post where you were claiming PCPC ripped you off for charging you 190 on reptile rescue. so take your own advice dude

I think everyone here has valids points. I have never been to PCPC because the rocket doesnt go that far lol I can however vouch for the fact that Adam was in charge of reptiles in a petstore with easily more then 100 crammed in a small space because thats where I met him.

I guess my post is kind of pointless but I felt leftout

Nick

Lovely Monica · 01-23-03, 10:59 PM

Check out the horrid and appalling conditions of the way we keep our animals at Boa Mania,

, just kidding, these are just a few of our arboreal Cages with a few lizard tanks on top of them.

We also have a large number of 3 foot and 4 foot cages made simuliar to these ones. I will take lots of pics tomorrow, just so you can get the sense of how we are housing the animals in our store. All cages have plastic trays, for easy removal and cleaning. We are trying to create a new age atmosphere. And promote proper husbandry methods to our customers.

heres a zoom in !!!

marisa · 01-24-03, 01:24 PM

I just wanted to add that also, I have agreed I didn't like certian conditions but knowing that **** happens I returned quite a few times to PCPC and in fact was pleasently surprised. So much in fact I purchased my Pueblan Milksnake there.

Not only is he free of mites but he ate within two days of arriving here, a thawed pinkie, and hasn't stopped since. I also think you would all agree with is a good qaulity animal.
<img src="http://members.rogers.com/mattl/1Shervous01-19-03.jpg">

Just wanted to post some good things. There is always a good side and a "bad" one.

Marisa

Dom · 01-24-03, 02:24 PM

I admit it,

The first time I went to his store I was a bit skepticle and judgemental and told many ppl how I was disapointed with the care of his animals.. Many cages were dirty and many animals were not in the best of conditions .. since then, I have gone several times in the past 2 years and I can tell you ..I simply went on a bad day!

I have a lot of respect for Grant. I have purchaseda few animals from a caimen to a carpet to even my rock python ... wich have done all amazing as well..

Everytime I have been there he has helped me out .. answered questions .. even found me a hotel when I need a place to sleep over..

Where I work, we have over 250+ animals and at times its dirty and at others its clean .. after feeding 15 snapers fish, the next day or two after .. u have no idea how bad it smells.. bad enough to make u think they had not been cleaned out in months!

My point is, he is a man who has worked ofr a wel deserved reputation .. true i would not keep my animals as he does BUT they are only temporary cage until YOU give em the loving home they need.. Petstores are here to stay and as much as i hate em because anybody can aquire an animal, I have been able to find many interesting and hard to find animals through Grant ..

I look fowar d to seeing waht he has to offer...

Just my thougs

Dom

Linds · 01-24-03, 02:43 PM

I will not gloat and rave about PCPC, I have only been in the actual store once, and I wasn't horribly impressed. But Grant has always been good to me, and the fact remains that PCPC is one of the founding sources for reptiles in Canada, and supports the industry (in ways such as the Metro Toronto Reptile Expo and providing hobbyists with animals that they may have trouble attaining in Canada's struggling industry). I have purchased animals from Grant in the past (one of which is the most beautiful little redfoot I have ever seen...lol...of course that is the most unbiased opinion o> jk), and have plans on it in the future. There's definitely alot I don't agree with, but on the other hand there is also alot of good. By the sounds of all the testimonies it sounds like I may have just stepped in on a bad day, so I am looking forward to being pleasantly surprised in the future

tHeGiNo · 01-24-03, 03:29 PM

Chappy: dude, I have no clue what your trying to say but I think you didn't read my post. If so, you missed the part where I said:

"I had just recently purchased a CH Ball Python and besides the whopping price I paid of 190, lol, I am extremely pleased with the quality of the animal presented. "

? What are you talking about? Take my own advice?

paul_le_snake · 01-24-03, 06:37 PM

the fact that thegino paid $190 for a ranched ball python is symtomatic of the problems we face.
cheers
paul

sSNAKESs.com · 01-24-03, 06:48 PM

if the animal is healthy and doing fine i dont see what is wrong with paying $190 for a ball python. IMO. You could always wait untill spring and pick up a couple of nice non eaters for 75$ from the guy who brings the 30 gallon tank full, i mean there has to be at least 100 in that tank to choose from.