A couple of question about feeding mice

NennaMeerkat · 12-30-10, 06:36 PM

So my baby hognose ate again, this time she didn't hesitate when we put the two pinkies in the aquarium with her. Yes they are live, and yes I am feeding her in the home she lives in. Next week, since she ate in front of us without a towel, I will try removing her into a separate container and see how she does.

Anyways, most of you will probably throw eggs and such at me for wanting to continue feeding live but I am. Thus I need to know what is the oldest "stage" of a mouse that I can get my snake when she is older that will not harm her. I cannot remember if it should be a hopper or not. I do plan on trying stunned mice but just in case she doesn't want to eat them for whatever reason I would like to know what the stage that won't be able to hurt her once she is an adult.

The other question I have is how often should I feed my snake a week while she is a baby? With our Corns we used to have years ago we always kinda fed them (once again live) until they would not eat anymore...but I have read in a couple of places that hognose snakes are notorious for overeating and I certainly don't want a fat snake. Right now we feed her 2 pinkies once a week (Thursday or Friday).

If anyone can help me out that would be great.

Nafun · 12-30-10, 07:01 PM

Nothing wrong with feeding live as long as the eyes aren't open.

As far as feeding live once the snake outgrows rats/mice w/ eyes closed..

You'll hear a lot of noise from both sides.

The pro side will tell you that live prey is more natural, it leads to fewer wasted rodents, and can be safe.

The con side will tell you that most snakes won't give a damn bit of difference whether their prey is fresh, that the money saved buying frozen in bulk over buying live every week outweighs any losses due to refused feeds, and that feeding live can lead to serious, even life threatening injuries to your snake.

The problem is, both are 100% right. It's like breast feeding, or circumcision. There are valid arguments on both sides.

My snakes, lizards, and turtles take a mixture of frozen, freshly killed, and live prey. Here is the advice I feel you need if you plan to continue feeding live.

1> Always put some of the rodents food in the feeding container so that if it gets hungry, it won't attack the snake out of hunger.
2> Never put a hungry rodent in with a snake. Make sure the rodent is well fed and watered. (makes it a healthier meal anyway).
3> NEVER leave any rodent unattended with your snake if the rodent's eyes are open. If you get a snake that will only eat live prey, and refuses to eat while people are watching, and has outgrown rats/mice with closed eyes, look to rabbits, or baby chicks.
4> When feeding prey with eyes open, watch them closely. Do not be afraid to get between them if the rodent bites your snake. It is up to you to protect the snake from the prey if you choose to feed live. No not be afraid to get bitten, you will probably be bitten by both the snake, and rat (rat bites hurt infinitely worse) but it's a price you have to pay to keep your snakes safe sometimes.

I've always fed my juvenile snakes as they're hungry. They get the largest prey item they can safely take once a week (barring brumation). If they start begging for food early, I bump them up. Adults get fed every two weeks, more often if they have a history of going off of feed during the winter.

While obesity is a risk to all reptiles, I wouldn't worry about overeating at that age. It's when snakes get older and they realize all they have to do is stick their head out once a week to get free food that obesity becomes a problem.

NennaMeerkat · 12-30-10, 07:31 PM

Thanks for ALL that advice hun. Cost really isn't an issue with me since my family and I only get smaller sized snakes meaning no Burmese no Red Tails ect. Sticking to generally small snakes is easier on the pocketbook whether we buy frozen or fresh food.

I guess for now I will stick with the 2 pinkies once a week and maybe up the amount after her first shed...shedding is a sign of growing and growing is a sign of needing more food when they are babies at least.

infernalis · 12-31-10, 07:28 AM

Although I am not opposed to feeding live, Unless you have pre-existing mice colonies you are working with, a bunch of pinks in the freezer is not all that expensive to have around, and it simplifies life, really it does.

On feeding days, I just thaw and serve.

NennaMeerkat · 12-31-10, 10:40 AM

True dat infernalis however having a baby snake that has yet to eat a frozen thawed (once I got in touch with the breeder she did say that the snake we got was only eating live for her as well) makes it a bit more difficult to feed than just "thaw and serve". I have tried more than once to feed her f/t but she would not take it. Tried all the techniques as well, jiggling, scenting, ect. and she showed no interest. Now we threw in a couple of live pinkies and she dove upon them (so to speak) and ate immediately.

Thus live is the way to go for me, at least for now, since I don't want her not to eat or stress her out in an attempt to feed. Honestly the price is negative considering that she is the cheapest animal we have in our home right now. Now if she were a big snake then yeah we might have more problems.

**Aaron_S** · 12-31-10, 10:51 AM

Live feeding is OK even when the prey items eyes are open. It'll just have to be closely monitored.

I recommend the same feeding schedule you're currently on and keep feeding her in her enclosure for a few more feedings before you try to move her out of it to eat. I also recommend just feeding her forever in her home enclosure. Less hassle.

NennaMeerkat · 12-31-10, 11:03 AM

Yeah I never left my corns alone with prey that could hurt them...at least not until they dispatched them all. Then I would just cover them up and let them eat in peace. Hognose don't constrict and so monitoring is a must. Thankfully she is no longer shy and will eat in front of me without the cover.

And everything I have ever heard suggests that it is not a good idea to feed them in their home enclosure due to the risk of bite and considering hognose are supposed to be mildly venomous it is something I want to avoid. However, I will take it upon good advice to wait a bit longer before trying to feed in a different home.

**Aaron_S** · 12-31-10, 11:16 AM

I don't understand that logic that a snake will bite more because it thinks it's getting food every time the enclosure is open. Doesn't anyone figure that if the snake is taken out to eat that every time it's taken out it's going to bite because it thinks food is coming?

I have a modest collection of snakes and have various other ones in the past. I have never encountered this association the way people describe it. Some species are just hungry no matter what, like king snakes.

NennaMeerkat · 12-31-10, 11:22 AM

Dually noted there I suppose. It probably would be less stressful on our new girl to not be moved into a strange place every time to eat. Never owned any larger snakes to know how they act and certainly never owned a King before.

Lankyrob · 12-31-10, 01:14 PM

I have started feeding in the enclosure just for my easiness. I just put a plastic plate in the enclosure and put the preyitem on it to minimise the risk of substrate ingestion. Three feeds donelike that for my seven snakes so far and no issues to report. I totally agreebwith arrons logic with regard to the feeding in or out of the enclosure too.

NennaMeerkat · 12-31-10, 01:56 PM

Thankfully she is on a reptile carpet type thing and so there is NO chance of ingesting something besides her prey. Live or dead. Kinda did it on purpose that way since we did end up feeding her in her enclosure instead of somewhere else. She might not get to bury and such but with no chance of accidental ingestion I think it is the better option.

Reptile_Reptile · 12-31-10, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I don't understand that logic that a snake will bite more because it thinks it's getting food every time the enclosure is open. Doesn't anyone figure that if the snake is taken out to eat that every time it's taken out it's going to bite because it thinks food is coming?

I have a modest collection of snakes and have various other ones in the past. I have never encountered this association the way people describe it. Some species are just hungry no matter what, like king snakes.

aaron is right by the logic of feeding in a tank will make them tank aggresive, then taking them out to feed them will make them aggressive outside of the tank. after a while you can just see that this is all rubbish and really feeding in the tank is good, because its less hassle and less stress on the snake, and i personally like to think that it makes them feel better cause they dispatched a intruder.

Ch^4 · 12-31-10, 04:31 PM

I do not oppose to feeding in or out of the enclosure. I personally feed out of the enclosure for sanitary reasons and to prevent impaction....nothing to do with "aggression."

I don't believe that snakes are more or less likely to be "aggressive" if fed in or out of their home. However, I must argue that none of my snakes have ever mistaken opening their cage as feeding time, and if fed in the cage, they may mistake your hand as food (they may also mistake your hand as food if you feed in a separate enclosure, but I feel that it is less likely and they only make this mistake after feeding).

They all know the smell of cardboard and newspaper...this means dinner. They all know the only time they get fed is when they are in their feeding box. All other times out of the cage are for exploration and exercise, and I feel that they "know" this!

I've been (defensively) bit countless times, but only by my younger snakes; my older snakes never assume the "s-position" unless in their feed box.

(sorry for the digression)

NennaMeerkat · 12-31-10, 07:51 PM

I love a good "debate" so to speak on feeding in and out of their normal home while giving me plenty of information I did not know before. Since there is no chance of impaction from my snake's home as it has reptile carpet down I will just continue to feed her in her home.

And since no one seems to object with me continuing to feed her 2 pinkies once a week and then increase to 3 when she has her first shed I guess that will be my game plan. I am also thinking of just sticking with live food and once she is old enough for full grown mice I will just stun them a bit before feeding.

Though honestly a hognose shouldn't have problems with having hoppers or whatever (isn't that the last stage where they can't hurt a snake?) for her entire life, even if I end up having to give her several a feeding?

presspirate · 12-31-10, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reptile_Reptile

and i personally like to think that it makes them feel better cause they dispatched a intruder.

I like that philosophy. I just cant picture Mickey Mouse as a home invader.

I don't believe feeding live is generally frowned upon. It's the people that just throw live prey in and then just walk away. Personally, I always feed F/T because it is far more convenient for me. But if I had to, I would feed live in an instant.