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01-24-05, 12:58 PM
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#16
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Member
Join Date: Dec-2003
Location: Portugal
Age: 50
Posts: 1,005
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The thing is you cannot be sure if people are telling the truth when they say they are not afraid of snakes. Most of the times
they are not telling the truth. It's strange, but fear is the ultimate survival tool and only those creatures who evolved around fear are around to tell. But fear (of anything, really) is considered shamefull in society, and we all like to say "i'm not afraid".
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Love will take you far and hate even further.
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01-24-05, 01:31 PM
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#17
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Join Date: Jul-2003
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,176
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In a lab setting, things like sphygmometers are used to remove any source of error in terms of a person's honesty. If you're afraid of something, there are measurable physiological changes that you cannot control.
But JimmyDavid has again alluded to the major selective force driving this innate behaviour; a primate who is afraid of snakes has a lesser chance of being killed by the snake and thus survives to reproduce and pass on his genes, making his offspring more likely to have a fear of snakes, and so on. Those primates that did not have a fear of snakes had an increased chance of depredation and would not survive to reproduce, thus you can see how this lack of fear for snakes would be quickly selected against.
Cheers,
Ryan
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01-24-05, 01:39 PM
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#18
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Member
Join Date: Dec-2004
Age: 37
Posts: 227
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yes..im still in high school..im in my senior year. but im not in regular school..im doing home school on the computer thru the internet. this way i'll graduate at 17
*edit*
and yea..i know what ur talkin about..there are soooo many books out there..i have a few on criminal and animal psych. and mental illnesses.
i havent gone thru them all..but im getting there
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01-24-05, 02:32 PM
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#19
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Member
Join Date: Jul-2004
Location: Northampton New York
Age: 39
Posts: 980
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Well I can tell people in my family are unafraid of snakes since I've had them help me while I'm cleaning their cages because I don't have enough temp enclosures for all my reptiles so my snakes must be held while I clean their enclosures, and none of them hesitate to pick them up unless they hiss, but that is only natural. In which case I'd say the fear is of being bit but not of the snake, the same fear and response which people have when a dog growls, or a lion roars.
Lioness from your pictures I would have never guessed you were only 17. In a way I wish were home school but I'm just learning to work well with people as it is I can't imagine how shy I'd be if I would've been home schooled.
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1.3 het ghost bps, 4.12.3 leos, 1.0 Tokay Gecko, 1.0 BCI, 1.0 Bearded Dragon, Emp. Scorpion,Red Bellied Piranha,Austrailian Cattle dog
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01-24-05, 03:28 PM
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#20
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Member
Join Date: Jul-2003
Location: NC
Age: 36
Posts: 752
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the evolutionary theory of fear of snakes is based on the idea that a fear of snakes is genetic and that the common ancestor of humans and apes was not afraid of snakes or lived in an area where snakes were introduced later than themselves. I don't think this is a very likely theory.
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01-24-05, 03:39 PM
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#21
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Member
Join Date: Mar-2003
Location: Ontario
Age: 42
Posts: 3,999
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Quote:
Originally posted by Neo
the evolutionary theory of fear of snakes is based on the idea that a fear of snakes is genetic and that the common ancestor of humans and apes was not afraid of snakes or lived in an area where snakes were introduced later than themselves. I don't think this is a very likely theory.
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umm. You have it wrong....i
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Steven
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01-24-05, 04:19 PM
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#22
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Member
Join Date: Dec-2003
Location: Portugal
Age: 50
Posts: 1,005
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I'm reading your post for the 5 th time and
wondering if something is escaping my understanding but, say ...don't you contradict yourself there?
I'm talking about Neo
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Love will take you far and hate even further.
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01-24-05, 10:55 PM
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#23
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Member
Join Date: Jul-2003
Location: NC
Age: 36
Posts: 752
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can tell me what i said that you disagree with?
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01-25-05, 06:40 AM
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#24
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Member
Join Date: Mar-2003
Location: Ontario
Age: 42
Posts: 3,999
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Your statement doesn't make any sense and from what I gathered from it, it seems that you are unfamiliar with the principles of natural selection. Behaviour is a product of our genes and our environment. Those ancestors of humankind and primates that learned to fear and thus avoid snakes survived to pass on their genes/behaviour. Those that failed to fear snakes obvioiusly did not survive to pass on their genes as well as those who did fear snakes. However if you read Ryans post you will see that selective learning is also taking place.
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Steven
Last edited by CDN-Cresties; 01-25-05 at 06:57 AM..
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01-25-05, 07:03 AM
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#25
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Member
Join Date: Mar-2003
Location: Ontario
Age: 42
Posts: 3,999
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I just downloaded an article on the subject written by Mineka that was published in 2003. I dont think that I can cut and paste it to this thread so if you are interested in reading it, shoot me a PM with your email and I can send it over to you.
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Steven
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01-25-05, 03:40 PM
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#26
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Member
Join Date: Jul-2003
Location: NC
Age: 36
Posts: 752
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I am familiar with the principles of natural selection. Individuals in a population vary (snake fearing and non snake fearing). Variations must be inheirtable (behavioral fear of snakes must be coded for genes that are passed through gametes). There are more individuals produced than the environment can support. As a result there is competition for these resources (sharing territory with snakes). Individuals with favorable traits survive and reproduce for traits to be passed on (favorable trait = fear of snakes). However, all of this acts under the influence of a selection pressure which in this case is snakes. We then have to assume that those attacked by snakes either die or lose the ability to reproduce. And in order to reach such a consistency where homonids fear snakes as a whole, speciation must have occured some where so that our ancestors where not afraid of snakes, but we are so we survived and evolved untill speciation occurs.
this is all theory, what i said in the other post is that i disagree with this theory because it is highly imnprobable. Behavioral genetic traits usually aren't linked to the gametes and result from independent noninheiritable mutations. I think that humans fear snakes due to societal pressures and learning over a life-time, not genetic pressures.
Quote:
Those ancestors of humankind and primates that learned to fear and thus avoid snakes survived to pass on their genes/behaviour.
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That concept of learning to fear snakes and passing it to offspring is based on le mark's theory of acquired characteristics which has been proven wrong.
Last edited by Neo; 01-25-05 at 03:44 PM..
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01-25-05, 04:59 PM
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#27
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Member
Join Date: Mar-2003
Location: Ontario
Age: 42
Posts: 3,999
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First off, if I was familiar with principles of natural selection, why would I use a lamarkian theory to agrue my point? Common now, give me some credit  Sorry if it came off that way but thats not the way I intended it to be.
I will quote the article to counter your position on the subject concerning that humans fear of snakes is due to societal pressures, although Im sure that certain institutions have contributed to this fear.
"This specialized behavioral module did not evolve primarily from survival threats provided by snakes during human evolution, but rather from the threat that reptiles have provided through mammalian evolution. "
Hopefully you will enjoy the read.
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Steven
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01-25-05, 07:55 PM
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#28
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Member
Join Date: Jul-2003
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,176
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Neo, just wondering what your explanation for any innate behaviour is, if not genetics? Just interested in what you think about it, as everyone's opinion is certainly vaild.
Though, I think you're misunderstanding something here by bringing Lamarck into this. We're not saying that some monkey decided to be wary of his predators and then survived to reproduce and somehow changed his genetic complement by fearing his predators. We're saying that a monkey who is predisposed to fear his predators, due to some heritable genetic mutation, has a better chance of survival then does a monkey who could care less (as a result of some quirk in his genome). This would be an advantage and would be quickly selected for since the alternative is likely certain death.
As an example, most animals exhibit a behaviour where the brain keeps their bodies in a state of paralysis during sleep. Are you saying that this behavioural trait arose from "learning over a life-time" and not because those that moved too much in their sleep had an increased chance of depredation, or fatal injury (primates falling from trees)?
How about the opposite scenario: marine mammals exhibit a type of unihemispheric slow-wave sleep which results in the behaviour where, although sleeping, the animal can automatically rise to the surface in order to breathe. Are you saying that this behavioural trait arose from "learning over a life-time" and not because those that did not automatically rise to the surface to breathe died and were not able to pass on their genes?
Innate behavioural traits that result in life or death are quickly selected for or against.
Cheers,
Ryan
*edit: wrote my name twice for some reason; yes I am that tired - I hope this post makes sense...
Last edited by Removed_2815; 01-25-05 at 08:04 PM..
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01-25-05, 08:00 PM
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#29
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Member
Join Date: Jul-2004
Location: Northampton New York
Age: 39
Posts: 980
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Wow I'm really surprised how far this thread went when at first I didn't even spell Psychology right  CDN if you could would you please email me that articile at dsreptiles@hotmail.com thanks
__________________
1.3 het ghost bps, 4.12.3 leos, 1.0 Tokay Gecko, 1.0 BCI, 1.0 Bearded Dragon, Emp. Scorpion,Red Bellied Piranha,Austrailian Cattle dog
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01-25-05, 11:02 PM
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#30
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Member
Join Date: Jul-2003
Location: NC
Age: 36
Posts: 752
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ryan-
to my knowledge there are far more factors than genetics when it comes to behavior and consciousness. Genes do code for behavior - true. but, genes only set a potential. For example, you have genes that set a potential height, but environmental factors such as nutrition, exercise, etc can limit or cause height to exceed expectations. Behavioral traits are mainly the cause of balances in chemicals and the central nervous system's reaction to them. Chemicals can even be affected by how many males a mother has carried. The womb will begin to produce different chemicals affecting a baby's neural system. This is even one theory for human homosexuality. In my opinion behavior is the least affected by genes of all higher organism traits.
Here's the problem i have with fear of snakes being selected for. Though one with a fear of snakes may have a better chance of survivng, it is not enough to change the genetic frequency of a population. Say some modern humans are born with a fear for riding in cars. thousands of people die from car wrecks, but the behavior of avoiding cars is not sufficient to change the gene frequency of any human population. The majority of our population doesn't have a problem with riding in cars. The selection pressure for snakes and fear of cars is nothing compared to the selection pressure for surfacing marine mammals
i havent read that article yet but i will sometime soon..
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