Mbayless and Crocdoc

[mbayless]

Well that is just it - bigger is better (in more ways than 1!), and bigger fellas get what they want/require. This goes for all Varanus species. Look at Walter Auffenberg's 1981 book on 'Social' = not a whole lot there really, just inter/intra-specific behaviors in hierarchy; as well as Jenny Daltry's study of V. salvator; Bivash Pandav's 18 month study on V. salvator in Bangladesh; Walter Auffenberg's studies on V. olivaceus (1994) and V. bengalensis (1995), the Lutz's books on Komodo's; Claudio Ciofi's studies on Komodo's, and all the Pianka papers, and the list goes on and on, dozens of studies become hundreds, and I have read them all, and have them all right here in my files....there is no clear cut evidence from the plethora of field studies, except 1, where it demonstrates Varanus are social; the 1 field study I find most fascinating is by Kai Philipps when he studied V. indicus, V. jobiensis, V. doreanus and V. salvadorii in PNG and found V. jobiensis nesting together in a tree hollow with V. salvadorii. I have 1 other eye-witness account of V. rudicollis living 10-20 meters up certain trees 20 km S. Kuala Lumpur where 1 V. rudicollis was seen on each tree, with adjacent trees having their own V. rudicollis among them as well - he would catch them and keep for a few months then return them back to this same grove ....other than those two accounts, I find no hard-core evidence of sociality in Varanidae....it does not mean it is not possible, it means from hundreds of collectors, explorers, zoologists, herpers, it has not been seen = what does that tell you?

In captive habitats, these animals have no choice but to behave in a constrained habitat, and as varanids do not usually kill one another in the wild, but run away, and save their gene pool/genetic diversity, why would they kill in closed box enclosures? They feel compelled to do so, as there is no where for the animal/adversary to go, so the larger animals would assume the lesser aggressor has not bowed to its challenges and must kill it = usually by crushing the head but decapitation has been seen, removing of limbs as well (my animals did that in 1980's) which are similar behaviors they have seen among the aquatic varanoids of the Tethy's Sea 75 million years ago among Mosasaurs, Aigilosaurs and Dolichosaurs. And quite alot has been written on Mosasauridae ethology is the last few years....

and do not forget Heloderma - they are not social but can be found in groups when nesting/mating ensues...

I am not saying it does not happen, but current information says no. It is not the job of a scientist to find it because somebody says it does - it is the person who says it does that should follow it up.... that is the fun of science - to add to the knowledge, not take away from it.

cheers,
markb

[Scales Zoo]

Monitors are my favorite reptiles, mostly because so little is really known about them. Different theories on such things are great.

I don't post much on any of the monitor forums, or this one, any longer because of "dogma" and such things.

I think it would be great for ssnakess to have the monitor forum that is void of all the problems seen in the "other ones"

Of all reptile fanatics, us monitor people seem to be the most extreme. Rather than pick sides, I like to try to learn from everyone who has something of value to teach.

There is a lot of really good information available from the members on this list, this post has been a good example of that.

I've read all the recent stuff on the "other forums" - and it ticks me off, cause all I want to do is learn, and share observations.

We owe it to the worlds varanids to have a place to discuss things, share opinions, and try to evolve the basis of what is known, what will be learned, and what will never be known.

I am not a moderator, so this sappy post is obviously from the heart.

What bugs me, is hypothesis (not even theories, by definition) being pushed as facts, by those who seem to feel they know it all. There is nothing wrong with hypothesis, when presented as such.

A lot of very knowledgable people, in Canada and through out the world, are not involved in any varanid discussion because of the tension. Think of what could be learned if we shared thoughts and observations like the cornsnake people do.

I'm ready to give this forum a shot, and I'll try to leave my personal differences aside, if everyone will.

Group Hug!

Ryan

[Cake]

Could the lack and or presence of social behaviour in V griseus, could also be somewhat explained based on the availibility and quality of food. If food sources are scattered and widespread, then individuals would be solitary simply because they decrease their direct competition for food by doing so. During the mating season they meet at high quality nesting sites, to procreate and then once copulation is complete they travel their own marry ways in search of their next meal.

By making this statement I make one large assumption and that is that all foraging grounds are equal in quality and availibilty.

Several individuals nesting in one condensed area may be a result of several combining factors. First off if high quality nesting sites are concentrated in one area, then this would lead to the obvious conclusion that there would be a high concentration of monitors in the the areas of high quality nest sites. The lack of conflict may be a result of a high likely hood of physical injury and posible death as a result. It may be in an individuals best interest to select a slightly less favourable nest site then to engage in combat and risk death, to obtain a slightly better nest site, if there is only a slight gain in reproductive output.

Also are the groups of monitors that nest together related? If so then kinship may also play a role.

[mbayless]

Hi Cake,
I do not know if the animals at these nesting places are related... but in northern Egypt on the Med. Sea coastline, 'pairs' of V. griseus have been seen hunting crocodile eggs, one approaches the moma croc head on and she chases it off, whereby the other does a civil war tactic of Jeb Stewart = flanks around the land-side of the island or offshore islet and preys on the eggs that way while the other V.griseus runs from her jaws; they take turns doing this so both get a meal.

V.niloticus also does this in pairs and threes. Question: are they related? Some say yes, others no. Now when you consider that baby V.griseus and V.niloticus hatch in termitarias and nests and stay there for a few days - imprinting on pheromonic level 'could' occur. The afore-mentioned is correct in observations - but this latter sentence on pheromone imprinting is my own suggestion...throughout their lives they would recognize 'family' by smell; one supporting captive observation to support this idea is: a friend of mine who has bred 5 consecutive years of V. albigularis/clutches has many babies from these offspring. These offspring will under NO circumstances breed with one another, but will freely do this with non-related animals. How do the V. albigularis know who is related? Pheromones. Have you ever smelled a V. albigularis or V. exanthematicus? They do smell different at different times of the year. So maybe this has some merit...it is NOT a theory (yet) as it is merely a question here: a theory is: asked, data collected (which some of is here), data compared and contrasted, and theory presented as conformed by the aforementioned 1-3. A theory is a idea supported by evidence; change the evidence and you change the theory - so add to this either way is good as it is add too, not taking away from this querry.

cheers,
markb

[kap10cavy]

I know what you are talking about with the smell. My albig smells like maple syrup.

Scott