Amazed at what I saw at the pet store today....

[Kevin McRae]

Wade:

Better make sure you don't get reptiles banned in the city(or in the province)or a few people are going to be quite angry.

Winnipeg pet shops aren't bad for there reptiles................maybe one or two but not many.

[Chris_Anderson]

Originally posted by panther_dude
Now this is what im talking about for negativity. You say you tried it once and it didnt work. Well ill keep trying untill it does. Maybe we wont go to the government, and need to look else where. I have no idea, all I know is it has to stop.

Also chris you always seem to come on here and put me down in some way or anouther. You never answered any questions I derected to you in the forums. whats up with that?
Oh yes we can all read. Re-posting my post in yours is really not nessicary all it does is take up room. I beleave you have already been warned about this numerouse times.

Wade,

I never said I had given up or that i stopped trying. I said I didn't think the government was the way to go. As I said, I've been working on creating methods for higher standards in the chameleon industry and am still working on them. I believe my exact words were that it was "a slow process" and education is as well. May I remind you that I'm trying to educate the chameleon community by my efforts in the Chameleons! E-Zine and I've helped create a method by which breeders can more effectively manage their bloodlines and buyers can look into breeders in the CCBTD. While I'm trying to change the chameleon community, I'm also trying to help protect it from harmful legislation. If you don't think they could ban the entire trade, you have another thing comming, they can and would have it people didn't do what they needed to stop it. I don't want to see these animals in pet stores suffering, thats why I refuse to purchase animals, supplies or food from them. I mail order all my stuff from places I know take care of their stuff. If we all did that, it'd make a nice impact...

As far as my not answering your questions in the forum. I've been driving cross country. I've been away for over a week. My computer died a few days before I left, etc. My apologies for not dropping everything for you, get over it. I saw this as a post I should comment on as I've been working to change the chameleon community. I copy your posts because you have shown in the past that you will alter your original post I respond to and by quoting it, that makes it difficult to do. I can also respond to particular parts of your posts.

Chris

[DragnDrop]

Originally posted by panther_dude
P.s Just had anouther thought. WHat if we did get the government to create a bann. Not on the importation of herps but a ban on pet shops to sell herps. Leave it to the breeders who know what they are doing. This could be a rather simple solution and I dont think would cost the government too much to enforce the ban. Not like after the ban is set in, a pet shop can get some iguanas shipped in with his next batch of rabbits. It might take time but maybe this would be a better aproach.

Reptiles aren't high on the list of priorities to deal with when you're talking governments. If there's too much hassle about them, and since they're a minor detail as far as quality of life goes where the residents of the nation are concerned, the best way to deal with it is eliminate the problem entirely. That means an outright ban. No need to hire staff to enforce the particular parts of the ban, making sure no store sells them. They don't have to worry about inspecting breeder setups, no extra work, no drain on tax dollars. If you get the government involved, we'll have a problem like Norway (I think it's Norway?) where reptiles are illegal and keeping them means jail time.

If you go around checking up on petshops as you mentioned earlier, you'll only be doing the preliminary leg work for PETA and similar organizations. They'll take your hard work and get our pets banned.

Stick with educating the store owners, employers and possible customers, or avoid the substandard stores completely.

Four years ago my town was considering a ban on reptiles among other pets. It was a royal pain to fight city hall. In the end they banned ownership of WC, certain species, and added a few other stipulations. If you go to the higher levels of government, you're just opening a can of worms.

Your intentions are good, the animals would be proud of your plans. However, in the long run, you'll just be making a bigger mess than we already have.

[panther_dude]

Well i dont know what to say..Seems to me like you guys care more about taking them from the wild and keeping them as pets then you do about the animals. If they have to ban the improtation of all reptiles so be it. Apperantly there are lots of breeders out there, we can all just get our herps from them.



I may be blowing this way out of proportion but this is how I feel.
When dogs and cats arent beening cept properly people cry cry and cry and the government or a government organization goes in and shuts down the operation. Why can this not be done with herps? Oh ya money. All anyone ever cares about is money, and themselves. Well if we complain to the government they will bann the reptiles indusrty maybe thats what has to happen, you got to quite being so selfish. Oh but I wont be able to keep a chameleon anymore that would be better off left alone in the wild. Big freaking deal, all you care about is your self if you have that attitude. And no matter what you say to try and fight it it's true. Being really selfish.


(edited
~ DragnDrop)

[Matt.B]

Hey paul why dont you be the first one to let your chams go and for every one that you spend the money to ship to its "home" I will send one of mine to its home. K? What do you think will happen. especially with leos having been in the reptile trade for 20+years they would never survive in the wild. and with not getting any more wild caught and breeding only what we have what will happen after lets say 2 years? without any import small amounts of inbreeding. 5 years breeding cousins and half brothers and sisters 7 years total inbreeding of brothers sisters and parents. Wen will end up with some very colourfull crawling blobs. I for one do not want that to happen.
Matt

[dank7oo]

Who is Paul ... ?

Jason

[Matt.B]

Panther Dude

[panther_dude]

lol my name is wade. Oh yes I totally understand. Im not saying release our captive animals in the wild that would just be stupid. And what do you think is going to happen if we keep going like we are now. After exporting so many animals yearly from the wild eventually the wild stocks will run really low and we wont be able to export them anymore and the species will be extinct.
Now your saying in breeding and stuff will have to go on. Well sorry to break it to you buddy but most of those morphs out there are a result of in breeding. YEs some are done through trait breeding. But why spend all that time and money when inbreeding is so quick and easy. Even the hybridization of panthers will have a dramatic effect. There is a very slight chance that a hybred panther will ba able to produce healthy younge for two or more generations if any at all. If we keep going like this I predict the end of the herp trade in 10 to 20 years.
But maybe if we bann imports for a decade or so the wild populations can be brought back up to a higher population, and it wont hurt there chances in the wild to come back latter and start exporting them again. Do you know how many of these animals that they originally catch in the wild, make it safely to a pet shop. My geusse is maybe 50 %, the rest die in shipping. Now that seems to work really well doesnt it. Not.
Now in the JUne 2004 issue of Reptiles there is an article on Mount Meru Jackson's Chameleons ( Chamaeleo jacksonii merumontana) by Justyn Miller. Id like to take a bit of the article from page 58 to show you how these herps are handle prior to being exproted.
It starts as follows:
One of the biggest killers of wild_caught chameleons is the inappropriate care they receive prior to export. The following procedure is common for collecting this species in Tanzania. First, locals catch the chameleons primarily during the night witht eh use of torch. The chameleons are easily spotted with their pale, submissive colouration whileresting. Collectors then combine their catches into containers (wire cages, woven baskets, ect.), and the chameleons are kept this way untill a jobber comes.
It might be a week or a month before a jobber makes his rounds within the area. Durring this time a good percentage of the chameleons perish. Next, jobbers take the chameleons to a city called Dar es Salaam, located several hundred miles away. Their wildlife exporters gather to purchase these chameleons, as well as many other species. Exporters commonly pay about $6 U.S. for a chameleon.
Chameleons are then shipped to reptile markets over seas. It may be weeks before the exporter can obtain the proper permits to ship the animals to the importer in the receiveing country. During this long process, very few of the chameleons are offered adequate food or water. This can cause sever dehydration and emaciation. Overcrowding and exposure to poor conditions further stess the majority of the chameleons. This can lead to irreversible health conditions despite the best possiblecare available post export/import.

Well there you have it and this in only for one species. We need to bann the importation of herps in north america. All these animals that die just so we can get one or two in our cages at home that actually survive. Its just insane. Bann the imports but not completely, we should have a society of top commercial breeders, who can go out and collect wild caught by hand them selves. Inssurring that the herps get all the proper care possible durring exportation. But we really have to leave the wild herps alone to repopulate the wild stocks if it is even still possible. we might have already ruined that chance with all the exporting we are doing yearly.
Again we have to stop thinking about ourselves and start thinking aobut what would be best for the animals. What we are doing now is deffinatly not the answer.

peace

wade shaw

[Matt.B]

Thats not a very good example. If the jackson chameleons were taken from the island of hawii(sp) completely that would be great for the environment so the export is a good thing. dont forget they are not native to Hawii(sp)
matt

[panther_dude]

ummmm ok there buddy. Im talking about a sub species for one thing that lives in tanzania. Not hawaii. Ive never heard of them being a probleme in hawaii anyways. Maybe you can point me out to the article that mentions this. lol you crack me up.
Im trying to have a seriouse conversation here about helping the reptiles, and all that you can do is try and find ways to denouce me!?
What's up with that?!
If you dont have any POSSITIVE feedback why post. I just cannot beleave how you people are reacting to this.

Also my point about breeders inbreeding animals for desirded traits is very valid. It is severly detrimental to there health.

I am really tired of repeating myself so I will no longer discuss this with anyof you if you have some possitve input I fully welcome a private message. Ill start a private organisation on my own if I really have to. If any of you want on board holla!!

peace

Wade Shaw

[Chris_Anderson]

Well i dont know what to say..Seems to me like you guys care more about taking them from the wild and keeping them as pets then you do about the animals.

Hardly the case IMO. I work very hard to provide the absolute best for my animals, to provide the best and most current information available to the general public at no cost to them through the Chameleons! E-Zine, to provide the means for better, more successful captive breeding efforts through my involvement with the Captive Chameleon Bloodline Tracking Database, work with people like the Mease's of the Chamaeleo Research Group on alternative sources to WC chameleons with their F1 import efforts (Click here for article on this ), and am currently working on rebuilding my old Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) which has been down now for over a year. Hardly seems like I do not care about these animals IMO...

If they have to ban the improtation of all reptiles so be it.

This should, IMO, be the last resort. Many of us in the US have been working to improve the trade but its a slow process. We don't want to see the trade end, we want to be able to continue our work with reptiles and be able to say that every effort has been made to improve the practices of the industry. Education is crutial in this process. Approaching others with the intent to help them is better than approaching them in disgust with the goal of making them feel stupid. My impression of you and your stand is that your aproaches to these store keepers is often given with an impression of you feeling superior to them. This doesn't work, they don't want to deal with what they see as a smart a** kid. Education has many levels and devoting yourself to this is more effective in the long run than trying to go for the imediate gradification you are looking for.

Apperantly there are lots of breeders out there, we can all just get our herps from them.

I think you'd be suprised how few there are out there breeding many of these species with any significant consistency. This is why it is important to work with those who are and try to help facilitate communication of successful efforts to help others working with them. At the same time, its important to increase the quality of imports by being willing to not buy from people who support those who import animals and poor condition and to then pay extra for animals from people who take the extra effort to care for their animals.

Oh but I wont be able to keep a chameleon anymore that would be better off left alone in the wild. Big freaking deal, all you care about is your self if you have that attitude. And no matter what you say to try and fight it it's true. Being really selfish.

Wade, where do you think your animals originally came from. Somewhere down the line, animals were taken from the wild for you to have your animals now. You want to start a breeding facility with a lot of animals. Where do you think they will come from? I'd be interested to see if you'd be willing to be the first to give up your passion, that means not supporting the reptile industry at all.

After exporting so many animals yearly from the wild eventually the wild stocks will run really low and we wont be able to export them anymore and the species will be extinct.

What evidence do you have for your claims? FYI, there have been studies on the status of chameleons in the wild that refute what you are saying to some extent. While unmanaged trade will definately result in this, the trade is not unmanaged. CITES imposes quotas of how many animals of each species may be exported annually. This numbers are based on studies on the impact of the trade on wild populations. Don't make statements that you don't know enough about the situation to back up. I can provide you field studies on population structures once my computer is fixed and I can access my bookmarks again.

most of those morphs out there are a result of in breeding.

Not really in chameleons. With F. pardalis, they are geographic variations that have evolved naturally over time. Same with C. parsonii and F. oustaleti. Very little has been done with morphs in chameleons.

Even the hybridization of panthers will have a dramatic effect.

True, hense the efforts we are taking to prevent this by providing the Captive Chameleon Bloodline Tracking Database.

There is a very slight chance that a hybred panther will ba able to produce healthy younge for two or more generations if any at all.

Do you have any data to support this? There have been studies showing a decreased reproductive fittness of hybrid localities but I don't know of studies that support your claim.

But maybe if we bann imports for a decade or so the wild populations can be brought back up to a higher population, and it wont hurt there chances in the wild to come back latter and start exporting them again.

When something like that is put into effect, it generally isn't easy to have it be on a time limit like that and to bring it back all of a sudden. Just doesn't work like that. Again, what populations are you talking about that are in such terrible condition and what source are you using to back these claims?

My geusse is maybe

OK, glad we established where your facts are coming from.

an article on Mount Meru Jackson's Chameleons ( Chamaeleo jacksonii merumontana) by Justyn Miller

Yes this is true, this is why we should try to support those who make the extra effort to provide high quality animals. Again, take a look at that article on F1 imports.

Bann the imports but not completely, we should have a society of top commercial breeders, who can go out and collect wild caught by hand them selves.

This is what we are talking about. You're thinking is nice but its not fesable in reality. Its just too complicated to enforce like that. Its just easier to ban it outright and through proper efforts and education given a little time, we can improve the trade without resorting to this.

But we really have to leave the wild herps alone to repopulate the wild stocks if it is even still possible. we might have already ruined that chance with all the exporting we are doing yearly.

Any data to show us on this?

Maybe you can point me out to the article that mentions this. lol you crack me up.

Thats the pot calling the kettle black if you ask me. Can you provide us with any articles that back up your claims? FYI, the C. jacksonii are an introduced species to Hawaii and the agricultural departments would like to get rid of them to help return the islands to a more natural form. Whether or not they are a pest is debated.

Ill start a private organisation on my own if I really have to.

And what exactly would the goals of your one man private organisation be?

Chris

[bear24]

Well Iam glad to see that we all agree on something. Chameleons should be kept in the best possible care a person can provide. If you cannot provide that care do not get a chameleon. Also some pet stores really neglect thier charges and none of us like to see that. The only way to solve this problem is through education and that takes time and people working together. Not you made me feel bad because I can't fix the problem over night. What about fish I like them and they die by the hundreds even thousands everyday because of bad husbandry. Only time, patience, and education will change that. If you still cannot get over the atrocities comitted by this demonic store..........Break in steal the Chams and laugh everyday you are watching your handywork on the news(I claim no responsibilty for actions taken from this post). Would do more good than your one man animal activist group. I have more to say but Iam a gentleman.

[Brock]

I once heard of a small group of animal activists proposing the ban of reptiles because their keepers fed them crickets, and to feed a living creature to another is atrocious; you should join this small group because some of your claims are just as ridiculous. I admire your passion to have something done, but there is a line that you've obviously crossed somewhere. First of all, more than half of us wouldn't be here if it weren't for reptiles in pet stores. Some of our first reptiles were anoles or grass lizards or what have you, I remember my first anole, and the first time I saw a chameleon in a reptile store; now I'm an enthusiast. The thing is, Wade, when you get the government involved, you're asking for trouble. The government doesn't care. I install water systems in people's homes, and I've learned about how cheap the government is with cleaning our water. Chlorine wasn't used in water until after the first World War, they said 'Hey, this does an excellent job at killing things...let's put it in our drinking water.' I don't expect you to know how they used chlorine, so I'll tell you. Chlorine gas was thrown over on the field of battle and it dissolves your lungs and makes you choke on your own lung fluid. Point: the government is a neccessary evil; if they don't put any effort in our water, they sure as heck won't care about reptiles.

Now Wade, if you truely believed that this was grown up talk, you'd have stopped talking by now and listened. You have two ears and one mouth for a reason. You have to realize that the individual animals we do keep WOULDN'T EXIST if it weren't for captive breeding. The chameleon(s) that you have right now wouldn't have been hatched at all if it weren't for importation. And the fact that the climate changes in the world are going to result in many extinctions and some new species, and some of the animals we will have will only be in captivity because of this. In some respects we're doing a favour as well as a crime, it's catch 22. You also have to realize that 99.9% of all the species that have lived on this earth are extinct, everything we know today is .1% of everything that has been. And the fact that if the history of the Earth were put into a calendar year, for example the dinosaurs ruled from March to April, etc, that the human species has only been around for FIFTEEN SECONDS. Point: life goes on; things change.

CITES is making sure, for the most part, that reptiles and lots of other animals are being kept in check. Such as why you can't get Brookesia species. There are also many farms, there's even one in Bali, that breed species, as Chris was referring to, that send out F1 (that means the first generation of captive bred) babies to export services.

Wade, you have to think of the reptiles that die in pet stores as martyrs, they are paving the way to a better future for other chameleons. And when you think of it in a way where they wouldn't have even had a chance to exist if it weren't for the pet trade, it's a big loss, but it has a purpose. Everything has a purpose. What you would be doing if you were a smart guy, is not acting superior to the human race and bringing yourself down to everyone else's level. Print off one hundred care sheets for each species being kept in your area, it's a small price to pay, and give them to the pet stores that have those species in stock.

I was in a pet store on a work break the other day, actually this Tuesday, and I saw a basilisk, grass lizard, FB toad, and two tree frogs in a 10 gal enclosure. It didn't look that bad to an uneducated person, and the owner said the supplier told her she could do that. I explained where each species was from in the world, the fact they have indigenous bacteria in them that could harm each other, the fact the toad was poisonous, the fact they need various different setups, and the fact that they all grow and compete for food.

It's not that hard, but it's effective. You'd be surprised how far logic and common sense and reasoning will take you with people, all you have to do is build some rapport, put yourself on their page, become level with them.

And by the way, Ch. jacksonii xantholophus was imported to Hawaii in the middle of the last century, and the pet store owner let them out in his back yard after a very long shipment so they could regain some strength and get something to eat. Some got loose, they established themselves, and they are a pest in some areas on the (indigenous....) species of birds and reptiles and amphibians and insects. Nothing on Hawaii is exactly indigenous though, because it is a volcanic island and everything was either brought there by the Polynesians or migrated or got lost, but the Jackson's there, in large numbers, are a threat because of their appetite and variety of prey. In small numbers they are beneficial to keeping the balance of things.

In closing, Wade, just be reasonable, extremists are often looked down upon for good reason. And reason is what you need to acquire before action.

-Brock

[dank7oo]

Wade, you have to think of the reptiles that die in pet stores as martyrs, they are paving the way to a better future for other chameleons.

Just curious .. exactly how? How does an chameleon dieing in a pet store help other chameleons in the future?

Jason

[panther_dude]

OK yes ill admit i went a bit off the handle. I was wrong im sorry. BUt I agree with dank for a change. How are they paving the road to the futur. They are dieing for no reason, and it deffinatly doesnt help anyone. If an animal dies in a pet shop. MOST will just repace it in the exact same enclosure and not sit back and wonder why it might have died. That would cost time and money. Two things that is all most people think about.

Also Chris you have no way of knowing how I try and talk to pet shop owners about their set ups and the way they treat the animals. I talk to all the owners in the city and no everyone of them by name. I gradually tell them how they can help themselves and the animals they sell.
I think no matter how you put things. You are still telling them they are doing something wrong. ANd most people specialy ones in the biz for so long. DOnt like being told they are wrong. No matter how nice you are about it.

Again sorry I did go off the wall. I dont even think i meant half the things I said i was just ticked that everyone wanted to give a negative opiniuon instead of possitve. Next time ill just shut up.

Wade