Opening A Can O Worms

[karmeleon]

I totally agree that we should set prices for our animals for what we want. i have received the same slack in the past for selling animals under "market value". it's ridiculous.

[adamofsound]

way to take the high road and not name names. That in itself speaks volumes for reputation.

[Simon]

LOL
Oh Darryl I definitely hear you~
I know how that feels~
I mean I produce so many animals each year that even though I have 6 wholesalers....I don't really get rid of everything. Even wholesalers themselves have a limit on how many animals they can take in at a time....and when I need to move animals out, I really do mean moving them out. If the market in Canada is like the States, then removing 1000 corns nearly as hard or as bad for me. But the market in Canada is so bad that I really need to wholesale them. Once all the wholesaler has taken the max amount that they can take, and I am still left with 300 corns running around my house still waiting to be sold out...I need to sell them at wholesale price to the public.

I understand that this definitely ruins the price a bit. But if you stand on the person that is holding the 300 animsl to be sold, you'll understand.

Even hi end animals are hard to get out to the market. You would think that selling them out at a lower price would get things going, but the market here in Canada is so bad that even if you lower the price for hi end morphs, its hard getting them out.

All in all, I do agree that everyone can set his/her own price. There is NO RIGHT for anyone to be so rude to tell the other person to either set his prices higher or lower. Its not their problem! NOT AT ALL!

[gonesnakee]

Something else to point out in reguards to say an Eastern CDN Breeder vs a Western CDN Breeder is that the East has a much larger concentrated population then the west therefore also a much larger market or should have anyway. M.I.
P.S. its good to see you post too Simon as you are a much larger breeder than myself & speak from even more experience.

[Invictus]

I personally don't give a damn if person A wants to sell their stuff for less than what I'm selling them for. The way I see it is, I do my best to collect and breed the most superior specimens I can get my hands on. If someone wants to sell common boas for $50, fine. Mine will still be at or slightly above market value if mine are nicer looking, cleaner patterned, higher pink, or whatever. (Not that I breed them right now, but I have the adults ready for next season.)

What bugs the hell out of me is people jacking UP their prices just because of who they are. This is egotsitcal horses**t in my opinion, and the way I see it is, if you want to jack up your prices, it better be the best specimen on earth, or I'll buy an equal or BETTER specimen for a lower price somewhere else, even if it means ordering in from south of the border. That's just my opinion. Bottom line, market value should be taken into consideration. But so should superiority of specimens, and/or motivated sellers.

[thunder]

simon: i am by no means trying to be rude, but perhaps you are overproducing? i mean, maybe you shouldnt produce more animals than you think you can move.

[gonesnakee]

"overproducing?" another good point, notso much with Corns but the whole het BP thing totally. Everyone is striving to produce those one or 2 albinos, but there are all the commons, pos het & hets to consider marketing also & that is on top of all the farmed & wildcaughts imported by the 1000's+ yearly. Mark

[mykee]

"Thanks for pointing out that a dollar value is more important to you then the actual animal."

Ok Leon, so with your reasoning, I should hold on to everything, have a couple hundred snakes just sorta sitting around? What you fail to comprehend is that for most of us in the "hobby" that sell our offspring we do so so that we can purchase and work with the animals that we want, fueling our love for the animals. Where's the law against loving the 'hobby' and makin' a little coin? For example, if I breed my pastel to 20 normal females, and get 30 pastels, you're saying I should have some deep-rooted emotional attachment to all of them and not even consider selling them. Hogwash. I'll sell my males and a few females so that I can buy the next whatever that I'm interested in and would love to work with. We finance our own projects by selling selected offspring. It is no less a hobby for someone who owns 100 snakes, breeds and sells their offspring then the guy who owns 1 snake and has no desire to breed. It's still a hobby regardless. I do agree with Ken however in that I could care less who you are as a breeder, it's your product that should talk for you rather than your "Name". If you produce a poorer quality animal, it's not long before your name is crap anyways. These things have a way of working themselves out. In my opinion, a lot of the big breeders out there have a great name because their product is top-notch. Again, it's all about reputation.

[mykee]

"I would much rather be known as the guy that has quality specimens at good prices then the guy sitting on them for months & months because he refuses to accept things for what they are."

Mark, if you're stuck sitting on things for months and months, you're not watching and in touch with the "market". You don't have to undercut the next guy by X% to sell your animals, but if you're "holding on the them for months and months" then you're overpriced. I think it's all about keeping you ear to the ground and knowing your market. Remaining competitive doesn't mean undercutting the competition. Canada's 'snake market' is miniscule compared to south of the border, ("10 years behind" was what one U.S. 'big breeder' whom I spoke with recently quoted). However the Canadian market is growing by leaps and bounds. From what I've noticed over the last few years, is that all of the 'lower end' het morphs and morphs are getting snatched up and 'new' breeders are coming out of the woodwork at an awesome pace. Just look at the great stuff coming from Kwok, Patterson, Stockwell, Piorun, Woods, Mandic, Marshall, Favelle, etc. (please accept my apologies for forgetting anyone) This is great! For the first time ever, Canadians are becoming a force to be reconed with. With this 'newfound respect' afforded Canadian breeders from the States, Canadian breeders are no longer pricing animals strictly for Canadians, now they have to consider the U.S. prices, and potential U.S. buyers. So I pose this question; are prices too high here in Canada, or are Canadians just too cheap? This topic has come up recently, and now that Canadian breeders are sending their animals south, prices become more competitive 'up here'. Can we keep up as buyers? Sorry to take this off-topic, but it all rings true.

[Optimus Prime]

Yes but to get new morphs you sometimes have to over produce, and you were the friend I was talking about at the beginning Simon cuz I know you get a hard time when you put your stuff on sale. I can vouch for Simon that he loves his animals each and every one of them, and he only breeds as much as he does to accomplish is breeding goals.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I agree with Mykee. Every year there's a crop of new herpers that come out of the woodwork. Its awesome!

And like Mykee alluded to, it works in levels. As soon as the newbees get on their game and start having clutches of corns and Leos and whatever, then all of a sudden, they have a few hundred dollars to play with. So then they get some entry-level boas or pythons or maybe an expensive colubrid with that extra cake. Then, when it comes time to breed those things, they make a few more extra dollars, and all of a sudden, a $2,000 animal purchase isn't out of the question. Its truly awesome when a herper like Crannie or Trev (Boidkeeper) breeds something, then flips the whole damn thing right back into more snakes. That's why they have the impressive collections they have.

And everyone could do it. Its not unattainable for anyone. And selling animals for what you want is not "being in it for the money". Not that anyone should care what anyone else says or thinks why you are into snakes. Let them believe what they want Mykee. If it keeps them up at night thinking you just do this for the hoards and hoards of cashola we keep in our closets, then too bad. Ha ha. You ROCK Mykee.

Optimus, you are a stand-up guy, and I've known you for over a year through our thousands of emails and phone calls. One snake will NOT kill the market. LOL, not even in Canada (haha!!). If you need to sell a snake, then you gotta do what you gotta do. No one else lives your life or is in your shoes. If someone feels so strongly about you selling an animal for less, then they should buy it from you, and then re-sell it at the "market price" and make a few bucks. Don't fret about people's opinion other than close friends or family. They are really the only people I ever listen to, and even then, sometimes not!! Ha ha, remember all the people raggin' on me because they said my Jungles were too expensive? Well 158 Jungles to start with, and I have 37 left. I'm keeping a WACKLOAD of those ones back, and I have 6 going out by Saturday. Am I worried about what other people think about MY animals? Nope. Watering and feeding and watching 'til my hearts content is my only concern when it comes the animals in my reptile rooms.

Cheers bro. And call me, I'm home.

[Scales Zoo]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
If someone feels so strongly about you selling an animal for less, then they should buy it from you, and then re-sell it at the "market price" and make a few bucks.

Exactly, and that is just what I said to the only person who ever bitched about me offering a deal on any snake. Either buy it or shut up!

But, Jeff, I mean, I gotta say...you keep throwing around the term newbie as if you've been keeping Jungle carpet pythons longer than most people on these forums. It's like you are trying to keep people from selling snakes for less, so they aren't considered newbies.

Why would you care, the mass public will want to pay to get it from a certain breeder, I mean, you kinda prove that. So be glad it works that way, I guess i'm saying.

Ryan

[Simon]

Originally posted by thunder
simon: i am by no means trying to be rude, but perhaps you are overproducing? i mean, maybe you shouldnt produce more animals than you think you can move.

Thunder,
First of all not trying to say that you're rude or anything. Cause I understand your point too. So the reply is in no way referring back to you. Just replying your statement alright?

Ha~
I knew this was going to come up.
But hey when you're working with hets, you cannont gurantee anything. Only higher production will lead to a greater chance of getting the hi end stuff that you want.

Why are people buying all these hets? Well its because they're cheaper and they might yeild hi end stuff over the years. So you start off with hets. How to you ensure yourself to get as high of a chance of getting the hi end morph that you were waiting for 2 years or more? Well you mass breed them in order to produce this hi end stuff.

Also the word 'over producing' would mean that I cannot provide the time and care for my animals and letting them starve to death or dehydrate to death. (At least this is my view on over producing.) But if I can get them out fast and provide them with a good home. I don't see a problem with that.

Also sometimes when a person really needs to get the animal out, selling under market value makes the animal out go faster. Like Darryl's case here (which actually started this thread) He wanted his animal out of his doors asap. He might be selling the animal at under market value, but at the same time he too is losing money. The amount of time and money that he spend on tha animal, its a lost to him. He most properly got his animal at 'market value' and when he is selling his animal at 'under market value' he is losing money. Heck even if he was to sell his animal at the 'market value' of the time he purchased the snake, he still is losing money. The feeding and caring and time spend money. So he too is 'suffering' the loss.

I am not saying that under cutting the market price is right or wrong. Cause myself as a breeder, I do feel that its a shame that other people undersell animals at market price. But other people have their own rights to do whatever they want. I mean I sell Lavender Corns for $250 each. I have seen some Canaidan people sell them for less than $125. What am I suppose to do? Lower my price or shoot the person an email and tell them to jack up his/her price? I don't think so. Like I said before, every one has his/her own market share and has the 'power' to choose whatever price he/she thinks its right. I sometimes don't feel happy when I see other people have a way low market price and is ruining the market price too. But that's life. There is no way that you're able to control everyone and make an equalibrium market price.

Mykee,

Originally posted by mykee
Mark, if you're stuck sitting on things for months and months, you're not watching and in touch with the "market". You don't have to undercut the next guy by X% to sell your animals, but if you're "holding on the them for months and months" then you're overpriced. I think it's all about keeping you ear to the ground and knowing your market

I don't really agree with this. Sometimes its not because that we're over pricing the animals, thus not being able to move the animals out. Sometimes its just that there are really no demand. I just had a friend that emailed me today and told me that he posted his ad up for a long time now and has had 0 email and 0 pm about the animals that he is selling. And I tell you, the price that he was asking was not over priced at all. In fact its a bit on the low end too (not like super low) So sometimes, I think a lot of times, its the demand that is driving us to hold our animals for longer than we expect. Not really the price.

Darryl,

Thanks for the kind words. I fully understand your point. Heck I feel both points as I am both a breeder and had to do an under cut in market price before. So I see both points~
But really you do what you want. Just sell the animal at what you want. Its only 1 animal anyway.

Most of my prices are higher than the normal Canadian market price too. So should I be sending emails to everyone and tell them to boost their price up? LOL....even though my prices are higher than most people, if you ask me I still say that I am moving a lot of hi end stuff around. So far for this year, I have produced 500 hatchling corns already...and guess how many I have left right now? Around 50.....I might have wholesaled 300 of them but the other 150 are already gone with retail pricing.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Well-thought out and informative post (as usual) Simon. If I were in the market for a corn, I would contact you FIRST, regardless of price. Some people search for the best deals, some people search for the breeder closest to them (shipping scares them), and some people, just go to the breeder who's stock and reputation supercede them. I'm the latter. If I want a Ball, I go to Corey or Mark. If I want an Aussie python, I walk down the steet to Don's house. If a boa is in my future, I call the King, Chris Marshell. If I want Hondurans, I call Marc Bouchard. If I want corns, I email Simon. If I want monitors, I'll call Kendrick. Its that simple in my world. Simon's corns and his service justify his higher price. Just like Mykee, who has posted superb pics of his growing Ball collection. Mykee can easily get market value for his stuff. I don't see him sitting on animals for long at all.

I even get emails from people asking if I could sell an animal for a bit cheaper. Sometimes I do it if they are buying multiple animals, but what I usually do is just give them an email of a friend who is also selling the same thing! LOL! I ain't worried about getting rid of stock. Its harder to keep up with the orders than it is to worry about keeping a few dozen animals into the wee hours of October and November.

Optimus, don't sweat it bro. Selling an animal for 10-20% under market value isn't going to kill anyone. Its not like its two litters of 30 hets and you're going to kill the market. The market, as small as it is up here, will be just fine.

Good suff peeps! Mostly well thought-out and informative posts!!

[gonesnakee]

Mykee, thats exactly what I am saying. I don't sit on animals for months & months. I research the market & sell accordingly. Many don't though. Whatever they are selling went for X last year so that is the price this year. I see these people trying to market the previous years stock as "holdbacks" & such when it is quite obvious by the looks/price why they are still available. As stated there are many more people working with many more animals now & alot of specimens are more readily available than ever. Its supply & demand, plain & simple. More specimens readily available in the market, the prices on those now less rare specimens adjusts itself accordingly. Example Childrens Pythons, a year or so ago $175-150, last season $150-125, this season $125-100. As more & more people work with this species & more & more are produced every year the price will drop based on supply & demand. The supply is increasing, but will the demand still be there. Its obviously been affected. Some people still refuse to adjust & are charging the same rates as 3 years ago & frown upon those that have adjusted & are selling their animals while they sit on their higher priced ones someimes at the next table at a venue. I call it adjusting they say undercut, but like I care what they say LOL. I don't like it either, but can & will adjust. We all hate to see the babies we paid so much for, now breeding to sell their offspring for considerably less than orginally planned 3 years prior, such is life sometimes. I too totally back the reinvest the money in herps thing. I sold/traded a whack of Cornsnakes to buy my Womas, Diamond etc. I'll Tell You What! LOL We all have to draw a line somewheres & we all have a responsibility to plan accordingly to market offspring. I get a few calls every year with people wanting me to buy them out, whether it be their offspring or all their breeding stock as a result of their lack of planning/marketing. The strong shall survive Heh Heh Cheers Mark
P.S. as stated population definitely helps demand & theres alot more population down south thats for sure.