Ontario Native Q

[Dani33]

I was chatting with someone about native Ontario reptiles and amphibians. We were talking about how some animals have the ability to freeze solid in the winter and miraculously come back to life during the spring thaw. Now, he said that painted turtles and wood frogs have the ability to do this.

Now my question is, can garters as well? He says no. I swear that I saw a documetary with time lapsed video of some garters that this happened to. Some couldn't make it to the den in time. This was quite a few years ago and I certainly could be wrong. It's been plaguing my mind ever since the conversation. If it wasn't a garter, can someone shed some light as to which species of snake that this could be? If not, are there any other species that have this ability and what this process is called?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[JD@reptiles]

Garter snakes hybernate deep in rock pits below the frost line. the ones that freeze solid do not come back to life. as for painted turtles i believe those also avoid freezing. from what i understand the only animals that can freeze solid and come back to life are some insects and some amphibians. i hope i helped. and somone please correct me if i am wrong.

Take care

Jordan

[Dani33]

Thanks Jordan. Native herps and field herping are becoming more and more interesting to me. I used to field herp all the time when I ws a kid and I think that I may start again this summer. My husband doesn't like herps, but he love hiking, so it should be fun! I don't know much about our natives but am excited to learn! Thanks for your reply. If anyone has any more info. I would be curious to know.

[JD@reptiles]

A fun trip is with Jeff Hathaway in the spring to pelee island. is a lot of fun. you get to help bring back endangered species and you get to go feild herping for all kinds of cool animals!

[Swampwalker]

"No animal can survive extensive freezing within its cells because the expanding ice crystals rupture cell membranes. A number of animals, including at least some turtles, can withstand limited freezing of body fluids outside their cells (blood plasma, for instance, or the liquid in their eyes). However, this sort of tolerance can only go so far. As ice crystals continue to form, the concentration of disolved substances in the turtle's remaining body fluid goes up. If that concentration become higher outside the cells than inside them, the cells will lose water through osmosis and, eventually collapse." - Survivors In Armour - Turtles, Tortoises & Terrapins by Ronald Orenstein

Jordon is correct about garters overwintering below the frost line.

Pelee Island is a great weekend for field herping. You will see a lot of interesting herps and meet lots of great people. What part of Ontario are you from Dani?

[JD@reptiles]

awsome. thanks for correcting me about the turtles.

[Dani33]

I live in Newmarket (North of Toronto) but my family lives in Essex County. I go there frequently in the spring/summer/fall. I've been to Point Pelee quite a few times (would like to go this year for the Monarch migration) but can't recall if my family went to Pelee Island. I've been on the ferry for a wedding - LOL. I've probably been there on field trips and what not as I grew up in the area - Colchester. Just can't remember. My family and I have been all over there. My brother and I went to look for snakes and whatnot every chance we got. My family really liked to do a lot of outdoors stuff - fishing/camping/hiking. So chances are I have. Is there a group of people that go every year? Rent cottages and such?

Edit: Sorry Jordan, I didn't read you above post. How can I get more info.?

[Nicky]

i was wondering where abouts on peele island r there the most herps and what kinds can u see usually go around my cottage but all we have are garters and frogs not to say there not interesting but would love to see some new ones. if anyone could share some good spots and what kind of herps my cousin and i could expect id really appriciate it. sry i don;t know anything about garters and there tolerance to freezing.

thx
kayla

[Removed_2815]

There are reptiles (snakes, turtles) that are able to withstand freezing temperatures for prolonged periods of time. Stewart's excerpt is very much correct in stating that the reptile cannot actually freeze. No animal cell can freeze. Even the freeze-tolerant amphibians (such as Gray Treefrogs, etc) are not actually "freezing" in the traditional sense of the word. If the cells were to freeze then very sharp, jagged ice crystals would slowly begin to form and lyse the cell, rupturing it and eliminating all possibility of returned cell functionality.
However, as I mentioned from the onset, some snakes can "freeze" when we are using the term to describe the state of being at a temperature below 0 degrees centigrade. Water freezes at temperatures below 0 degrees centigrade, of course, but some animals have been able to counteract this thermodynamic setback by incorporating certain solutes into their cellular matrix (as well as the extracellular fluid).
I am aware of various systems that utilize glycerol as an antifreeze and it is possible that the freeze-tolerant reptiles and amphibians also use glycerol to lower the freezing point of their bodily fluids.
Every compound has a different freezing point/melting point and this can be altered by adding solutes and/or removing impurities. This is seen all the time in the snowy North when we utilize salt on the roadways. Salt effectively lowers the freezing point of the precipitation it dissolves in, hence no more ice (to a certain degree of temperature).
So, some reptiles and amphibians (not 100% sure about Thamnophis ssp.) can allow their body to fall below zero and actually be encapsulated in ice and reanimate during the spring thaw, because their body did not actually "freeze".
I hope this makes sense.
Cheers,
Ryan

[Cruciform]

Informative post

There are fish in the extreme north and south that utilize natural antifreeze in their systems as well.
I wonder if we'll see scientists working on a nanotech solution to cryogenics that will involve filling people with antifreeze

[Dani33]

So, can anyone name which species that have the ability to do so? Thanks for the informative posts everyone! I find this very interesting. Our local library sucks when it comes to herp books. They are all old and probably out dated. Can anyone recommend any good ones? As well, does anyone have any info. about the pelee island weekend?

[Jayson]

The documentary you are remembering was on the discovery channel a few weeks back and the snake they showed thawing in the snow was a red sided garter.
The whole story is as RMBolton discribed

[Removed_2815]

I knew you were going to make me dig up some papers Danielle
Okay, Thomas Churchill Ph.D. has published some research in cryoprotectant synthesis in freeze tolerant frogs, freeze tolerance in a newly identified freeze tolerant vertebrate, the Garter snake (there you have it!), and metabolic responses elicited by other stresses (anoxia and dehydration, due to the stress of subzero temperatures) in the garter snake and two frog species (Rana sylvatica and Pseudacris crucifer, Wood Frog and Spring Peeper, respectively).
I believe the main cryoprotectant in Pseudacris crucifer and Rana sylvatica is glucose, and glycerol in Hyla versicolor. Churchill indicates that Garter snakes are only partially freeze-tolerant (5-10 h at -2.5°C; 30-50% ice), and that two amino acids, glutamate and taurine, have been implicated as possible cryoprotective agents.
Ryan

[Dani33]

Thanx, your awesome Ryan!

[Removed_2815]

My pleasure....