Parasite transmision

[SHvar]

I offered experience to explain why you dont just poison your animals every time they arent doing as good as you want them to do. Never treat them as if its maintance or preventative medication, its poison. You should never give deworming meds to an animal unless for that species the meds are proven safe, not considered safe by some people. Never treat a reptile for worms unless its health condition requires that the worms be gone for it to be healthy. A parasite is in 90% of cases species specific and in many cases specific to a certain age or life cycle. Find the real problem, treat the real problem, the cause of the problem, those animals have had parasites since before they were imported with no ill effects, theres a serious husbandry issue to be solved long before medication is needed.

"your theory that parasites cause no harm"
Lets try this again, parasites do not harm healthy hosts period, fix the real problem before you try to poison your sick animal, and prove it needs treated before you poison it on purpose.

"If all you want me to do is kowtow to your monitor experience
then fine, you have way more experience than me. Happy?"

Ive buried enough monitors to know that you dont just treat an animal for parasites unless there is a specific health risk that species is causing your animal not to treat because you think it might be a parasite problem.

" If you want to actualy stand behind your gross misunderstanding of parasitism then I suggest you do a little reading first. I may not have years of experience with them, but there are people out there who have and who have written articles and books and whatnot. If you can do a serious literature review and then come back and tell me again that your above statement is true, we will have something serious to discuss."

Ive read the articles on parasites the books etc and then after I thought it was safe to treat the animals years ago I had it done just that. You know the animals taught me more than the books ever did, since the only monitor experts in this world are monitors, Ill believe what they teach me. And if you read those articles completely they state "if determined to need treated for heath reasons that make the parasite dangerous by a professional vet..."

Ive learned my lesson and buried those animals because of my lack of understanding at that time of what those meds can do to the animal. You go ahead and bury yours but dont just tell someone else to do so also, because your gonna be the one having the finger pointed at when their animal dies.
You argued against Steeve B on this, you argued against Vincent on this, you argued against me on this you argued against others on this, but you have no experience or knowledge to back up your claims, just what some article or book says, whos talking theories???

[asphyxia]

I know this: this thread is a great source of information.
I also know that it is wise to have lots of different views on a particulay subject, and believe that all posters have some excellent points.

Brian

[skinheaddave]

Not once have I argued that a lot of parasites can be treated through husbandry alone. In my limited experience I know this to be true.

Not once have I argued that treatment without appropriate husbandry can solve the problem. I know in my limited experience that this is not the case.

Not once have I argued that all monitors should be treated for all parasites. I know in my limited experience that this is not the case.


Not once have I indicated that the medication used is somehow mild or harmless in and of itself. It wouldn't work very well if it was.

Not once have I even suggested a course of treatment, other than consulting with a vet should an animal be doing poorly despite correct conditions. Something you yoruself have indicated.

All I have argued against is this sweeping generalization that ALL parasites are harmless as long as the host is healthy. This is simply not true. I will say it once more. If you can't address THIS ONE POINT that I have been trying to get at then don't bother. There are parasites that are quite capable of making a healthy animal unhealthy, regardless of "environmental" conditions.

Perhaps an analogy would be in order. You guys come out and say "all cars are left-hand drive." A very believable argument if you live in North America. Also false. I come out and say "yes, most cars in North America are left-hand drive, but in some countries they are right-hand drive." The argument that comes back is "what do you know, you haven't driven as long as us. Have you even driven one of these supposed right-hand cars (I have, but lets pretend that I haven't). If you go and start driving on the wrong side of the road you will end up killing people. We aren't about to stand by and let you tell people to kill people by driving on the wrong side of the road." Do you see how the counter-arguments have absolutely nothing to do with the original point?

Cheers,
Dave

[Steeve B]

Adult female ornatus, I obtained this female as adult and kept her 18 months before she died. The cause of death was obstruction of reproductive system, she was kept to cold for 4-5 years and never allowed to cycle properly, you can see calcified follicles, you can also see from the color and thickness of her blood vessels on her fat bodies, the poor circulation that caused her death. When I obtained this female, all her bones could be seen I hade to force feed her a full month as she was to week to even drink, during this time she vomited and defecated numerous parasite, hook worm and tape worms could bee seen with the naked eye, other parasite where detected with 100x microscope, no drugs have ever been used on her, of special interest are the scars left on the lugs (white dots) by a parasite called Lungworm (Entomelas sp.) a post mortem exam reveled no parasites what so ever, this proving to me for the xxx time that given a chance monitors flush out there parasites.
This can be somewhat explained by first;
Monitors have high metabolism, they eat a lot and digest fast making it difficult for parasites to be resilient, much like a full belied leach on your leg that lets go and drifts with water, parasites are flushed in the same manner with feaces.
Next; monitors bask at high heat, some parasite (not all) cant handle higher temperatures, this is the case with Lungworms, they die when the monitors bask at high temps, in numbers they start decomposing in the liver casing sever infection that will ultimately destroy the liver and lead to the death of your monitor (will post a photo of this next)
However in this case the ornatus completely recovered from its parasite infestation and started cycling like all monitors shod, this killed her as her reproductive system was already damaged from years of neglect care.

[Steeve B]

This was a wild couth adult female croc monitor, she arrived 2 years ago parasite infested, she started feeding well and flushed all her parasite, this apparently went well as she cycled and produced 5 good eggs 11 months after arriving, then cycled again and laid good eggs before she died in an accident (over heating) Post mortem exam showed her severely damaged liver again caused by Lungworms, however this time in large numbers, no parasite was fond in any of her organs. This female was never treated with drugs, if she had been when I got her shed most likely who’d have died as her liver was way to damaged to cope with any drug.
Aim not an anti drug, I just want varanophils to be informed that vet medicine is still in its infant stag, do not expect to much from it, drug administration is still not fully understood, dosage (like Mark said) needs to be addressed, dosage is way to high for varanid and even more so for snakes. Sure vets need us to consult them if progress is to be made, however they need to start respecting the fact that our animals are important to us, and we don’t want them to be used as test dummies, most vets I know really don’t care about my reptiles as I do, they killed many with; Lets try this aim sure it will work!! Mentality. Therefore staying away from them has given me better results, aim sure one day the tables will be turned, until then Il play it safe.
Of particular interest; look at her healthy reproduction system, good blood circulation to the fat bodies, the brown discoloration on them is a result of her heating accident.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/da...to_123-med.jpg

[PaulBar]

Heres my two cents on parasites and reptiles.

Most reptiles carry some kind of parasite load. Only when the reptile is not taken care of well enough will the parasites be able to manifest themselves to the point of causing adverse symptoms in the reptile. (ie: not eating, weight loss, death, etc)

So don't medicate unless you have symptoms, since meds are poisons and cause their own issues.

If you feed your animal well, with nutritious food and provide a clean, well heated environment, you won't see the adverse symptoms of parasites in your animals and you won't need to medicate them. Don't fix the problem if you don't have one.
Another words don't medicate a healthy animal unless there are symptoms.

Paul

[PaulBar]

PS

The best med I have found is Panacur. I have had vets recommend Metronizdazole (Flagyl) and it did nothing.
Panacur cured the issue in days.

P

[PaulBar]

I also agree that most Vets have no idea how to treat reptiles, even Vets who claim to be reptile experts.

They just go to Dr. Gecko and pull down information from there and use it to charge you big bucks to do a cure you could do yourself.

P

[Steeve B]

Paul what your saying demonstrate exactly my point, Panacur and Metronidazol are medications used in the treatment of entirely different species of parasites, when good identification is made only one of these medications will be used, the problem is vets will try at random ether one then suggest the other if the first fails. This is called the shut gun therapy, and it kills monitors by damaging the liver and kidneys, if they are lucky they die fast, most will take years to do so, and your vet won’t know or will not admit his fault.

[skinheaddave]

Steve,

In my lone experience using a vet to help treat for parasites, great pain was taken to correctly identify the parasite in question and assign an appropriate treatment. Worked like a charm. The vet was fairly knowledgable about the species in question, but also consulted with other vets, did a lot of research, and relied on reading I had done as well. In short, the fault you find with vets is not universal. I guess I have been extremely lucky in that respect, but having a major vet college associated with my university helps.

BTW, your above case where you state that "some parasite (not all) cant handle higher temperatures" is basically all I'm getting at in this whole thread. You indicated a good mode by which monitors can cure their own problems, stated its effectiveness and backed it up with a case study, but still indicated that this is not going to be the case 100% of the time. I learned something useful because actual information, rather than rhetoric, was presented. Good job.

Cheers,
Dave

[Steeve B]

One case is good information, 100 cases is very valuable data!
I never ever give advising based on a single event, or from others experience, when I tell peoples breeding monitors on an insect diet doesn’t work, its because I have tried it in more then one angle, so when aim told that they need an insect diet, it doesn’t matter who tells me so, I no its not the case.
its peoples like you and me that allows this hobby to reach higher levels, when we don’t understand something we research until we do, once we have gained a better understanding, it who’d make no sense to retrograde because an expert tell you otherwise, you don’t need a PhD to achieve good results in any research. let me share a story about a kid visiting a vet school, the professor talked about a reoccurring case of salmonella infection affecting most of there parrots, no matter how careful the problem kept coming back, so here we are 15 kids taken on the grand tour and being explained how complex zoo vet work is behind the scene, we where allowed to ask question, so I asked, I see you are hatching red ears slider in the annex beside your birds, can this be a salmonella vector?!?! he didn’t answered, many years later I was at the same zoo for a job interview, there was a board of 6 peoples asking question, he was one of them, he said with a smile I remember you Steeve! turned to his college and said that’s the kid who fund our salmonella problem. he is now a vet professor at the Saint Hyacinth Veterinary school where he invited me often for an exercise with his students, most of witch (vets alike) don’t understand that years of herpetoculture can teach you things you cant learn from books.
to answer your question; 6 years ago before I stopped treating for parasite, I was advising to make proper identifications before using any drugs, and using half dosage. However this didn’t work as peoples relied on drugs instead of correcting there husbandry, this is why I keep it simple, you hade very good arguments, but how could you have known what I did without experiencing it.
Rgds

[skinheaddave]

Steve,

The flip-side of that is that herpetoculture will not teach you things that laboratory studies and field work will. There seems to be this sentiment in the monitor world that if you publish something you somehow invalidate it. As if word-of-mouth is the only valid information. An independence from published material, as a result of its general deficiency, seems to have turned into a backlash against formal science. Look at the result I got by simply suggesting that people use the correct terminology. What I fail to understand is how reading something you have typed is somehow considered more valid by some than me reading a book that a parasitologist has written.

It seems a bit absurd to me. You have a bunch of people who keep animals in boxes saying that their experience is valid and should be considered in the grand scheme of things. They then turn around and try to tell a community with thousands of collective years of experience in a formal scientific setting that their lives are all for naught. It is as if looking at a parasite through a microscope is somehow not a real experience, whereas watching a monitor become healthier is.

Cheers,
Dave

[Steeve B]

In my case the need to understand created the need to bring laboratory science in my hobby. The funny thing about this thread is these words makes both of us look like extremist, picturing you as Pro vet! And me as non vet! However its not true, in my life everything is about balance, its never been about how high on the ladder I was, aim quit content helping others climb no matter at what level I am.
I see many new herpers much smarter then me, no dough they will bring this hobby to a new level, I truly consider it an honor to share my experience with you guys.
What who’d be absurd who’d be to shut the door on common knowledge to glorify science.
Good science is archived via passion and is available to all. Not all published science is good, but how can one know without experience.

This thread as got to be the best Iv seen yet, but still someone will try to apply it to snakes and will fail, or will have monitors to debilitated to get better and die, Then will argue about its value thinking its misguided information.

Rgds

[drewlowe]

Originally posted by PaulBar
PS

The best med I have found is Panacur. I have had vets recommend Metronizdazole (Flagyl) and it did nothing.
Panacur cured the issue in days.

P

Different parasites = Different Meds.

You cant just say oh my (reptile) is sick i think it has parasites i'm going to treat it with panacur cause it worked last time. Why can't you do that, because each parasite is treated with it's own specific medication.

Yes i won't deny proper husbandry plays a HUGE roll in parasites. Sometimes you are incapable of parasites coming in to a speices i.e. food. Now i don't keep monitors but i have done alot of looking into on parasites and medication.

I'm using references from: Understanding reptile Parasites by Roger Klingenberg D.V.M.

If this parasite is present you should use the proper medication.
for example:

If my "herp" has coccidia i'm going to treat it with Albon (sulfadimethoxine), not panacur or any other kind of meds. it states to not use it if your animal is dehydrated or renal impaired. So if you know your "herp" has a parasite but isn't showing symptoms what happens if that parasite ends up "taking over" then your going to be too late to help it with meds.

Nematodes ( Round worms,Hookworms, Pinworms, and there are several others) These types should be treated with panacur.

amoebas& Flagellates- should be treated with flagyl.

Cestodes ( tapeworms, Flukes) Droncit.

When giving meds you should take extra precation. Panacur is hard on the liver and cause loss of eating. It's recommend to make sure you animal doesn't get dehydrated. So you can take that extra step and make sure your animal is getting proper nutriention at the time.

This book goes into more details about each med and parasite. When i was having troubles finding a reliable vet to treat my leos none of them where finding the correct solution so i left it to myself to do some research on this subject and to find the right meds to combat the parasite.

This is just my opionin on the matter. If any of my herps have a parasite i will find out which parasite it is and the proper medication to give. I will not allow my vet to just give me any medication unless it is the correct one.

[skinheaddave]

A few points:

I see how people might think that I am a mouthpiece for the vet profession. I have only gone to a vet once with a reptile (many times before when I had a dog in my childhood, for shots and the likes). I do, however, recognize the value of vets. Though I have only used my vet for one animal, I have consulted with her on other matters before. I have also consulted with many profs on various matters and, of course, have consulted with "hobbyists."

I feel that shutting the door on "common knowledge" is absurd, but shutting the door on science is also absurd. They both have their strengths and weaknesses.

As for how you tell good science from bad science, there are more ways than just experience in the area being studied. You don't even have to understand a system to catch things like pseudo-replication or teleological arguments. If you do understand the system you can also catch things like sampling bias etc. By reading referenced papers, you can catch misrepresentations as well as poor citations.

A perfect example of the failings of both "common knowledge" and science is purple loosestrife. Common perception was that it was harming our ecosystems. People were up in arms over this invasive plant. A study came out with a key graph showing that it was indeed harming our ecosystems. This was then cited by all subsequent studies. Eventually someone went back and re-examined the original paper and discovered that the trend was non-significant. In other words, there was no effect. Since then, the scientific view of purple loosestrife is changing. The politicians are still pushing forth on old science, though, and peopel who are "experiencing" their back yards still hold this perception that it is harmful.

Cheers,
Dave