Handling BCI's

[BoaBoi]

Good point dude, but then again he has a human heating pad set on medium in the corner, if the snake wants it goes there. As far as the other comments about the responsabilities I agree with you 100% but you have to realize that the snake itself isn't and possible threat if treated correctly. I have head of NO injuries from "tame" snakes(Meaning snakes that liek handling) that were the snakes fault, it's always either doing that stuff with a non"tame" snake of SFE(Stupid Feeding Error). Which in that case It is the owners fault as usual, about the same thing goes with any animal.

On another note very rarely does a boa get big enough to do any major harm to someone giving that they are over 16 or so, even the true boas do not. Now a retic can do such, and talking about snakes like that is another story but remember we are talking about Boas, and at that BCI which remains smaller.

James~

[djc3674]

I have head of NO injuries from "tame" snakes(Meaning snakes that liek handling)

How do you know they "like" being handled, just because they tolerate it without hissing or striking????

On another note very rarely does a boa get big enough to do any major harm to someone giving that they are over 16 or so, even the true boas do not. Now a retic can do such, and talking about snakes like that is another story but remember we are talking about Boas, and at that BCI which remains smaller.

Dude, you need a reality check. Have you ever handled an 8-10 ft girthy BCI. They are powerful as hell. If you think for a second that you will be able to pull it off of you (easily) if it constricts around your neck or torso...YOU ARE MISTAKEN!!! However, it is not as common when dealing with boas that this happens, but dont underestimate the power of a full grown boa.

Its your kind of thinking that enables accidents to happen.

[tHeGiNo]

Amen. And I really apologize if I came off as a prick. However, you must understand this is wrong, understand that for what it is, and change accordingly. Why is it wrong? First off is safety. This is clear as a freshly cleaned window (), in that having a loose snake means accidentally rolling over him, scaring him, possibly causing an attack. You risk the boa mistaking a moving body part for a prey item, and again an attack. As Snakemancole said, there is no such thing as a tame snake. There is a level to which they tolerate us, yes, and that varies with each animal. There are several other cases where the snake may injure you, and I will let your imagination take care of them. If you don't mind getting hurt from this, or ignore the REAL possibilty and capability of a fullgrown BCI to kill you, then one would have to think about everyone else on this small planet. Like I mentioned earlier, accidents because of irresponsibility like this example infront of us is what leads to bylaws, stripping responsible keepers of their right to keep these beautiful animals due to unecessary stupidity. After considering personal well-being, think of the snake. He cannot digest properly in 75 degrees, nor will he be comfortable living in this environment. Improper temperatures leads to MANY other health problems, stunt growth for example. Not being a vet, I cannot list everything. Then think of all the items in a room with a free-roaming snake that could injure him. Then the possibility of the snake getting into vents, getting stuck, and dying. You must also consider the fact that this snake is going to be defecating on the floor, on furniture, etc. This is definitely unsanitary. It is also very difficult to keep a room clean and bacteria free then it would to a properly kept cage. Again, there are MANY other things which may injure the snake, but I will leave that to your imagination once again.

Moral of the story: accept the advice. Help your friend to correct where he is wrong. I am guessing the snake is fullgrown if it is freeroaming. Tell your friend to get a nice 4 foot long enclosure. Stick some heat pads underneath and acheive a basking spot of 95 degrees. Keep him on a good substrate, newspaper would work brilliantly. Give the snake a nice big water bowl, and a hide on each side. You two provide the proper home for your snake, which it seems you are interested in doing, and call it a done deal. I will end this with a question: could you tell me one good reason, key word there was good, why to have a snake free roam. I am sure you cannot answer this question. As a good buddy of mine advised me while discussing this thread ( you know who you are lmao) your friend needs our help, not to be ridiculed against. He was right. Me bitching at you was not helping anything. So now I hope I came off a lot nicer, and worked to fix the cause. Now I can just hope you take my advice. Have a great day.

[tHeGiNo]

Again, I must correct you. Not critisize, correct so that you may learn.

I have head of NO injuries from "tame" snakes(Meaning snakes that liek handling) that were the snakes fault

There is no such thing as a tame snake. Get that word out of your vocabulary. You will be much better off without it. Second, there is NO such thing as a snake that likes handling. NONE, what-so-ever. The snake TOLERATES you handling him.

Lesson: there are no tame snakes. No snake likes being handled. The snake rather puts up with you, and again this varies from individual to individual (snake). Improper husbandry is taking unecessary risks. Your friend is taking an unecessary risk. Period.

Second. Do NOT think that a boa cannot hurt you. DO NOT FOR A SECOND THINK THAT. You could not be farther from the truth. I have put one of my four foot ball pythons around my neck, and you would not believe how much they can constrict. I am confident, if this ball python wanted to, he could have squeezed tight enough to choke me to death.

On another note very rarely does a boa get big enough to do any major harm to someone giving that they are over 16 or so, even the true boas do not.

Saying things like that will make people lose a lot of respect for you. Or at least I lost respect for you when I read that. I was thinking you were a smart guy. Maybe you are, but believe me, an adult BCI could do plenty harm to you. Thinking otherwise is stupid. You must learn to respect the power these creatures have before you can properly care for one. That attitude will get yourself in trouble.

[tHeGiNo]

Like he said, have you ever held a full grown BCI? A healthy one, I should say. If your speaking in reference to your friends boa I wouldn't doubt you living in the conditions he is, I am suprised the snake is still alive.

[BoaBoi]

I for one do understand the power thes beautiful animals poses, and do have a 4'x2'x17" cage in the mail as we chat. As far and have I ever handled a full grown boa, no...But I have handled a 9' boa before, and an very nice albino reticulated python which was 13' when i handled her. As far as being smart, I have no idea, I'm told I am constantly but isnt everyone? I do know ALOT about snakes, much more than your average person, but I will not assume that I know all there is about them. There is ALWAYS something new to learn, thus the main reason for these forums.

James~

[tHeGiNo]

Awesome man, I am thrilled you are providing the proper care for your boa. As long as you take our advice, and learn from it and change because of it, your are the biggest one here. Now, make yourself even greater of your person and change your friends mind on husbandry. Do us all a favor, including yourself.

[Invictus]

Originally posted by BoaBoi
I do know ALOT about snakes, much more than your average person, but I will not assume that I know all there is about them.

I'm sorry James, but thus far you have proven to us beyond any shadow of a doubt that you lack even the most BASIC knowledge about snakes. Now, I am personally sick to DEATH of people saying that snakes merely TOLERATE handling, because not one person here is an expert in animal psychology, and not one study has ever been conducted on this. I personally own a few snakes that get VERY stressed out if they are not taken out of their cages and interacted with on a semi-daily basis. So on this point I will defend you - until someone shows me their degree in animal psychology, assuming that snakes only tolerate handling is equally ridiculous to assuming that they require it.

HOWEVER, you seem to lack basic knowledge, namely the number of things that can go wrong from having a free-roaming snake in your house. You seem to lack the knowledge of the sheer power of even a 6 foot BCI. You seem to lack the knowledge of a snake's capabilities. You seem to think that snakes are just like dogs, which are a PACK animal and will obey whoever they feel is the alpha. So far, I'm sorry James... but you have a LOT to learn before you can say that you know "A LOT" about snakes.

And though I disagree with theGino's assessment of likes vs. tolerates handling, the rest of his advice, as well as the advice that others have given you here regarding getting the word TAME out of your head is extremely sound advice. Tame is simply a relative term. I have a "tame" blood python - I call her this because she has never hissed (until very recently, and it was only because she was hungry), struck, bitten, or jumped. But you know what? I treat her as though she could snap my finger off any time. In expecting this, I am preparing for it. In preparing for it, I'm not making the classic handling mistakes that tend to lead to bites. See the point here? You make assumptions that are just plain WRONG. ANY snake can and will bite you if it feels uncomfortable or stressed in any way. Your friend is a moron, plain and simple. He is going to get boas banned for all of us. PLEASE do not follow in his footsteps, and take the advice that is being given to you here. Thanks.

[djc3674]

I agree. Our CB snakes do (to an extent) like the interaction. They have grown up not knowing anything else. They were born and raised in captivity and kinda get used to being handled. However, I am unsure Invictus how you know your snakes get VERY stressed if not handed on a semi-daily basis. After all, noone here is an animal psychologist. What signs do they give you that lead you to believe this? I know for myself, my 7FT BCI will appear to want to come out of his tank, but when I go to pick him up he tries to get away. Once I have him out he is fine, he settles down and will relax on me. As a matter of fact, when I try to put him back, he is a pain in the butt, he fights like heck and doesn't want to go in.
However, its not the same as that of a cat or dog, that will actually seek out attention. I think we as snake keepers enjoy the interaction with them more than they do with us. Overhandling can stress them out just as much as neglecting them.

BTW Invictus, in no way am I belittling (sp) your experience w/ reptiles. I have been keeping snakes for over 2 years now, and I am a kindergartner compared to alot of people on this site. I'm just curious what signs you see that make you feel that they get stressed if not handled every few days??

[hip]

“Tolerates” versus “likes”

Hmmm…… How about changing the word “likes” to familiar
, might be a better description of Boa/ keeper interaction. Regular interaction coupled with a Boa’s excellent olfactory sense and the unique pheromones of the keeper could lead to familiarity for the boa. (On the molecular level we all have a different and unique scent) I have two boa’s that fit into the two descriptions perfectly. Female Bci will hiss once and a while and wants to be left alone will tolerate some handling but prefers to just hang out on the floor. Never wants to come out of her enclosure and goes back in like a bullet when I put her back in. Male Bci on the other hand will stay right on me for as long as he is out. I can place him on the floor (while I am on the computer, always in my view) and within a few minuets he is right there working his way up my leg wanting to hang out with me. (First time I have seen this in many years of keeping boa’s) He always wants out of his enclosure and never wants to go back in. So two boa’s who live in similar conditions and have the same environment and the same surroundings both display two totally different behaviors.




I fully agree with everyone who has made it a point to point out the sheer power of any type of constrictor. You get a 6 foot boa wrapped around your arm that does not want to let go it is very difficult to get them off (I don’t care how big or strong you are) Respect and caution are two of the greatest tools that can be used by any keeper of large boids. When I say large I mean 6 feet and up (no does not mean 4 or 5 feet are not included in the respect and caution category) Keep long enough and you will get bitten buy even the most docile snake , and you will have moments of concern if you handle big snakes alone. Be safe big stuff should have 2 people if you are not experienced with proper handling. Just don’t put yourself in a position of compromise if you are alone and use common sense and in certain situations proper tools.



Caterpillars never never never wear brown boots




Hip

[MouseKilla]

It's true. I also hate the brown boots, that's why the toes have gone blue... and I say my name: RedShoe

[Linds]

Originally posted by BoaBoi
Once I see a snake eating p/k rats from you hand without even constricting it I beleive that the boa is tame as a dog for life.

Quite a few of my snakes do not constrict their prey, and (handfeeding is a bad and possibly dangerous habit to get in to) many of them will not even strike at it. Some of the babies I will not bother with the tongs on occassion and they will just take it from my hand (caution- bad habit, and shouldn't be done with medium and large sized animals) gently and gulp it down. Guaranteed if I tossed a live one in their they would strike and constrict without hesitation. Snakes are not thinking/feeling animals, they are missing that part of their brain, hence they act purely on instinct. They can never be considered "tame".

Originally posted by BoaBoi
I have head of NO injuries from "tame" snakes(Meaning snakes that liek handling) that were the snakes fault, it's always either doing that stuff with a non"tame" snake of SFE(Stupid Feeding Error). Which in that case It is the owners fault as usual, about the same thing goes with any animal.

Accidents like that are never the animals fault, as you said, but they are not necessarily all SFE. Most, if not all, human fatalities involving snakes have been from snakes that were deemed "dog tame" by their handlers. Most common incidence is the handler wearing the snake around their neck and having their snake contrict. There are many things other than scent that can provoke a feeding response, even something like feeling you breath and the pulse in your neck.

Originally posted by tHeGiNo
Also, if I am not mistaken, his snake not constricting the prey is not a good thing...

Captive snakes not constricting their dead prey is quite common, and nothing to be alarmed of.

[Invictus]

Hip, you bring up an excellent point about familiarity instead of "like", because all of the snakes in question that I have that have a smiliar reaction to lack of interaction have been handled their whole lives, and arrived in my collection as adults. A couple of others have acclimated to being handled often.

djc - We're talking the classic signs of stress - cage cruising, hissing all the time, sometimes even refusing food dangled right in their face in favor of just coming out of the cage! My big boy Hades (the one I posted a pic of doing the stairmaster, hehehe) is the best example I have of this. He indicates to us that he wants out by either putting his nose right against the sliding glass doors, or cruising all the way to the top of the cage trying to climb out the top. The reason why I know he likes the interaction with people is because if I take the top off instead of opening the glass doors, he'll still come straight to me, instead of trying to get away from me... and in fact, he'll only come out so far, and if I walk away, he hisses LOUDLY. But then as soon as I pick him up, he's totally calm, and often times literally just sits there - occasional tongue flick, but he's quite content just being held. After about 15 minutes, sometimes as much as half an hour of handling, he puts up a fuss when we put him back in his cage, then he gives us the "I want out" indicators for about an hour, then he's fine.

Another example would be my adult corns who will do the same thing - take the lid of their rubbermaid off, they will come straight to me - not trying to get out on the other side of the cage. When out, they are typical corns - cruising ALL over the place. But, when handled directly, they calm right down, and are quite content being in their cages for a day or two afterward. Because they are naturally active and are absolute machines at feeding time, their signs of stress are far more subtle, but because I handle them a lot, they are easy for me to read. Morpheus, the biggest corn I own, has some dead giveaways of stress based on how tightly he holds on when handled. If I go more than a few days without interaction, he'll cut of the circulation in my hand, easily. When he gets handled every day or every couple of days, he'll fall out of my hands if I don't hold on.

The bahavior of my snakes and their own preferences / reactions to stimuli is something I pay extremely close attention to. Because I treat each snake as an individual, I know when they are stressed or content, and when they are about to give me a clear signal to leave them alone. (*CHOMP!*) In doing so, I've probably avoided quite a few potentially painful situations.

I have many more examples, but I figured I'd just use these 2.

[BoaBoi]

100% what I'm talking about, get to know your animals. Learn when they are or aren't stressed and wether or not they want to be handled. I consider a snake that NEEDS to be handled as tame, however there are different interpratations to the word tame. Use common sense with the animal, it may be tame but at all times they are wild animals and have the possibility to go straight into the instinct part simply because of a certain stemula. Even something as small as a jerky movement can make a somewhat "tame" snake have a feeding responce.

James~

[BoaBoi]

Originally posted by Linds
Most, if not all, human fatalities involving snakes have been from snakes that were deemed "dog tame" by their handlers.

Hello~DOG TAME...That's exactly how they are, most of them very good pets, but even dogs have attacked and killed people.

James~