Purpose of Having Venemous Snakes?

[T.O-SK8TER]

Was it a f/t mouse or p/k?

[Zoe]

Holding your breath is nearly the same thing

Well, not really. If you are holding your breath your blood can still circulate, still become oxygenized by the alveolae in your lungs (until the oxygen runs out). When you are being constricted, there is no more blood circulation, either.

And MANY people have been bitten in the middle of nowhere with no anti venom and lived people I have talked to have also been biten by snakes that have no anti venom that person is still alive
People have been bitten by black mamba's with no anti venom and lived

Sure, and people have been bitten by giants and lived, have been constricted and lived. Heck, people have fallen out of planes and lived. Doesn't mean its safe.

And a smart hot keeper keeps anti-venom on hand no matter what so that problem isnt a problem

It's easier to say that, than to do it. Yes, most hot keepers keep a/v, but not all of them. And if noot, kapoot! Or if you are incapacited for whatever reason.

Puntured lungs often kill pending if it goes completely though both sides of the lung and the person it happens to.

You went from almost guaranteed to often. Anyway, pneumothorax (punctured/collapsed lung) is far from often fatal. Some people can have it and not even know until they go to the doctor for shortness of breath and painful breathing and are diagnosed. Those cases are usually the lungs being torn by blunt trama (say, being in a car crash), or in weak and frail smokers. In the case of penetration (of a knife or rib, say), because a lung is like a sponge, once the object is removed the lung can reexpand. Sometimes surgery is needed. Forgive the bio lesson I just would not want "if you get a punctured lung you will die for sure" to go around .

unconscious and dead are two differnent things you cant set a time on someones death because ALL bodys are different

Yup, you do have a point. But it's safe to say that "Bob will live for 5 minutes without air, and Linda will live for 15 minutes without hair" is illogical. Those trained can obviously survive longer without air. But when it comes to constriction, there is no blood - and thus no oxygen - going to the brain. And your brain can't survive more than 3 1/2 minutes, 4 TOPS, without oxygen.

Imo A Smart hot keeper is far safer then a Smart large boid keeper but a dumb hot keeper is dead while the large boid keeper may escape

Yup, probably. That's what I was saying earlier with my whole "guy a. is holding a burm, guy b. is holding a hot" bla bla bla

Zoe

[SCReptiles]

Little Dragon
You post strengthens an argument that I have been making for quite sometime. The general herp population sees venomous keepers as taking too great of a risk and we can not justify what we do to them, however, we understand fully why we do it. The general public feels the same about you, that you feel about venomous keepers. They just can not understand why you would want to keep reptiles at all, but you understand perfectly why you do it. Venomous keepers like Smith just can’t seem to understand why I free hand, but I understand perfectly why I do it.

Invictus
I am researching an article that I am writing on man-eaters. There are documented cases of large constrictors taking man as prey. Classic case was a rock python a few years back. It completely devoured a Shepard boy before regurgitating the meal after he was stoned by villagers.

I would be the first, well probably second after Smith, to admit there is an err of danger in keeping venomous, but based solely on numbers, large constrictors seem to be more dangerous. I keep both, just to assure that I am as close to death as possible. =) According to reptiles magazine, Burmese alone are killing 2 people per year in the United States. That does not account for the Anacondas, Retics, and Rocks. On average about 5 people a year die in the US from venomous snake bites, but virtually all are encounters with wild specimens. (And usually when people are trying to capture of kill them.) There was the recent death of the guy in OH who was tagged by his Rhino viper, but that was the first death from a captive venomous that I have heard of in a long time.

While the numbers support the point that constrictors are more dangerous then venomous, I think they are misleading. I believe the numbers are such because of the way keepers deal with the animals. We take liberties with the pythons, we would never take with the rattlers. I have never been bitten by a venomous snake, but I have been bitten more times then I can count by the pythons. I don’t think that fact has anything to do with the snakes, moreover, I think it is the way I treat the snakes.

[reptilesalonica]

Well said Bryce! Because as i see Zoe don't want to understand what i'm sayin.
ps. to Zoe, I'm not "the Greek guy" i am Reptilesalonica or Greg
Here is what i have stated many posts ago...

Giants need more than one person to handle.
Hots need a hook to handle

'
Beyond that, people who want to free handle their hot snake or handle alone their giant, they are on their own.
I respect SCReptiles' level of knowledge in Herps, but my oppinion is that if SCReptiles, if you my friend, free handle your hots then sooner or later you get tagged and from the other hand, i understand the herp community also, because IF something happened to you {knock!knock! on wood! } they don't want to participate, because they don't accept free handling as a safe method for handling hots as pets.
Bottom line is hot herpers or not, or those who have both, they are under the public eye...
What do they wait for? They wait for mistakes by herpers to
stack us to the wall and our beloved herps.
~Greg~

[Zoe]

Greg you say that everytime. I do understand what you're saying, do you even bother to read what I'm saying?

I realize that is what you're written. I even mentionned it many times. Like I said, those are SAFETY PROCEDURES. If they are ignored, the hot keeper is at greater risk. If they are followed, the giant keeper is probably at great risk. Do YOU understand THAT?

Oh, I specified "Greek Guy" (arent you greek?!) because I wanted to GregM to know I wasn't speaking to him.

[little_dragon_]

Boy I really hit you guys with a good discussion, lol.
I watched a few documentaries, Scrub Pythons, Retics, Rock Pythons, Anaconda's have all been known to take Smal Adults and children. On the Set of Anna and the king a man was attacked by a large python, probably a retic, being Thialand/maylasia.

I know I will hit another spark but I think Large Boa's Pythons, such as Rock, Retics, Anacondas, Scrubs should not be allowed to be sold to the general public.

[Zoe]

I pretty much agree with you there. I've seen too many rescue burms, that I don't think they should be kept by the average herper. And in most place, they aren't even legal anyway.
Boas, however, I think are fine. They get to be 7-10 feet, nothing near giant size. Also, yellow anacondas don't get very big at all, it's the green condas that are dangerous.

Zoe

[SCReptiles]

I do not attempt to convert anyone to free handling. I understand full well why most venomous keepers do not do it, however, I feel free handlers have as much right to exist as the non-free handing keepers. My point is that the general herp community says the same things about hot keepers as they say about us. Its all just a cycle.

[Zoe]

Have you ever been invenomated, Chuck? I'm not asking in a smart *** way, I'm just curious

Zoe

[SCReptiles]

Zoe, never. I have about 15 years experience in hots and I have never been bitten. Further more, no one I have ever trained has been bitten. I love being able to say that and I fully intend to keep it that way.

[Bryce Masuk]

"Like I said, those are SAFETY PROCEDURES. If they are ignored, the hot keeper is at greater risk. If they are followed, the giant keeper is probably at great risk."

That's what I was trying to get across glad I did
Hots are amazing but not for 99% of people From the first time I saw someone handle a Hot in person I was hooked When i am ready I will keep them but not till then

[Invictus]

You are still being foolish by saying that giants are more dangerous. Maybe a giant, once it has decided to kill you, is more dangerous than a hot that has decided to kill you, but again, consider the LIKELIHOOD. Also consider the PER CAPITA cases of people dying from hots vs people dying from burms. Sorry Chuck, but saying X number of people died from this snake and X number of people died from that snake is completely invalid, and actually proves my point. HOTS ARE MORE DANGEROUS. Consider the ratio of burm owners who have been attacked by their burms. It's probably one in 10,000 or less. But Chuck, I bet you've been attacked by hots, haven't you? Maybe not tagged, but don't tell me your hots haven't tried.


Hots are hundreds of times more likely to attack you than boids, and that is a FACT. You use hooks to handle hots because they are more dangerous than boids, and that is also a FACT. You people who are claiming otherwise are very good at dodging the issue. If your hots are safer than my giants, you'd be able to free handle them, but you can't, ergo, your hots are more dangerous. FACT.

Little Dragon - I can't say I agree with you, but apparently Alberta Fish & Wildlife does. Burms, scrubs, retics, anacondas, afrocks, ALL illegal in Alberta. I hate it. I am a responsible keeper, and would like to be able to keep some of these giants.

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

[FONT=times new roman]

Eh, you can free hand hots I as well as others I know have. Not that its a constent practice but I've had to prove points several times such as the pic in Kingsnake. Im sure most have seen it in the galleries..

Hots are hundreds of times more likely to attack you than boids, and that is a FACT. .

Attack. Such a fun word.. The hots I have and all the hots I've had can prove you wrong on that. (Except atrox, fun animals)
I bet boid keepers have been bitten 10 times more than hot keepers..

You use hooks to handle hots because they are more dangerous than boids, and that is also a FACT

We use hooks to handle our animals because when our animals decide to go into defense the bite we get is more than just a few holes. Not persay more dangerous.

Evryone seems to think just because they are venomous means that they are dangerous, thing is we know our animals will bite and we know what our animals can do, so why tempt it?

[Gregg M]

Actually both venomous and large constrictors can be very dangerous in the wrong hands....... That should be the bottom line here....... T.O.SKATER, to answer your question, NO I have never been envenomated or bitten by a venomous snake and I have been at this for a looooooooong time........ That is something I am very proud of....... I hope to keep this perfect record for as long as I keep hots......... Invictus, You have many valid points here........ I do agree with Chuck about the numbers of deaths due to constrictors....... And if you check the numbers of hots to the number of constictors, there are way more hots in the states, wild and captive........ You do the math.......

[cobraman]

"NO I have never been envenomated or bitten by a venomous snake and I have been at this for a looooooooong time........ "

Me either, Gregg!!!! (OH, OH!!!