Just Realized I Have a Moral Problem with Feeding Live

[djc3674]

IMO I dont not know why people make such a big deal about feeding live. I mean the feeders you buy in a pet store are bred just for that FEEDING. I believe that live prey helps start a feeding response especially with babies. Here is an example:

I recently purchased a baby hog island boa. I waited for over month to get him. The breeder was having trouble getting the babies to eat. Finally I just asked him to ship him anyway, and I would work with the animal. Well I do not know what he was doing, but after having him for 3 days, he ate a small (live) fuzzy mouse. I have had him now since May 26th and he is pounding down fuzzies. When the prey item is small it generally dies quickly and there is minimal suffering. IMO, I would rather have my snakes feeding well and be healthy then worry about the mouse/rat suffering. I can see feeding p/k or f/t when your dealing with large prey items that can really do damage during the attack. But when your feeding pinkies and fuzzies, let the babies do the work, I think its healthier for there well-being and it makes it more natural for them. Its like they get to reap the rewards of their hard work.

I mean give me a friggen break, its a damn rodent for crying outloud. People need to stop being such woosies. If you cant take it, then dont keep carnivores as pets. From what I have learned on this forum, is that the snake gets more protein from eating live, rather than something that has been sitting in a freezer and has been dead for who knows how long. I guess its really up to the keeper to decide how they want to feed their pets. For me, my snakes eat very well and are healthy and that my main concern!!

[Stockwell]

Pyros, can be a pain to get going, just like the Mexicana group(greybands,thayeri greeri)
I would start trying your Pyro on brained pinks, sometimes that is the key. You can use frozen ones if you prefer.
I generally put baby Pyros and Mexicanas on the Pump for several meals to get them going.
You may not realize it but both ticolors you have mentioned are both notorious problem feeders.
Try Lt. annulata, cambelli, or Hondurensis,to end your feeding woes.
Also Pyro knoblochi are the best feeders as the Pyro group goes.

[Colonel SB]

Moral Problem? Whats that?

[marisa]

I understand why you feel bad for feeding live but it probably was a mistake to take it away at that point and it could have been dangerour for your snake. It would have been upsetting for you had its jaw been injured all because of one pinkie mouse. But I do understand how you feel.

I would say just don't fed live, don't buy snakes that need live a lot and don't interfer with the feeding again.

Good luck in the future. As you keep snakes for longer and longer you WILL be de-sensitzed (sP) and you will know that sometimes its better to leave things alone rather than giving human intervention.

Four or so years ago I had no snakes. I certainly had no clue about the whole "mouse world" out there for rodents. My BF wanted a snake so he got one. Here we are four years later and last night I just cut open a pinky head to get a hatchling snake to eat. Four years ago this would have made me sick, it would have made me feel cruel and really horrible. I didn't even think twice about it last night.

As your interest grows for snakes, your sensitivities for mice will go down. You will see them more and more and more like food each week. Not to say you won't care about suffering but things will get WAY easier for you.

Marisa

[Zoe]

LadyHawk, I probably would have done the same thing as you did. I've never had a snake have a problem like that, and it would have scared the crap out of me.

And yes, I agree with you that feeding live is not cool. Sure, they do it in the wild, but half the reason we keep them in captivity is they don't have the endure the crap they would normally.

Never forget that you have no right to change natures way

If you had said that 200 years ago, maybe. But we have changed natures way so much that it isn't nature's way anymore, now is it. Is keeping a snake from another continent in your house, in a cage, on newspaper natures way? That's news to me!

I think its healthier for there well-being and it makes it more natural for them.

How so? Snakes don't think the way we do, dj. Do you think a snake says "Oh darn! I really wanted a live one this time so I could be proud of myself to catch it!"? Of course not (at least, probably not!) If the snake believes it is alive, constricts it the same way it normally would, then the outcome is the same.

I mean give me a friggen break, its a damn rodent for crying outloud. People need to stop being such woosies.

Well that is an ignorant assement. Ladyhawk was expressing HER discomfort at seeing an animal in pain. Be it a snake, a cat, or a rodent. No one called you a cruel, inhumane monster for allowing rodents to suffer, did they? (its possible - I did skim over some of the fluff ). I don't want to see an animal in pain either. Which is why I buy my stuff dead or kill it myself. I have fed live only once, and thankfully my snake bit it right in the face and constricter it right away. But still, it took a few seconds to die and I was aghast at seeing the poor thing's tail spinning that way. At least you have the sense to not feed large rodents live, and if you wish to continue feeding young rodents live, of course it is your choice. But for some, rodents do have importance, because they do feel pain and do suffer, and it is not fair you to call them "woosies".

Zoe

[Clownfishie]

I agree completely Zoe -- you took the words right out of my mouth I've recently had to feed live to 2 of my problem feeders to get them eating, and I found it to be an awful experience -- I felt absolutely terrible seeing the mice's feet kicking and twitching -- the first time I couldn't even watch.

[Siretsap]

I feed frozen thawed to practically all my snakes except one who will only eat live mice. I tried feeding him a thawed rat but he refused too many times for my patience and I am not the type to starve the animal till he takes the rat. I feed live newborn pinkies to my baby cornsnakes and they make a poor job at constricting (note that I have only seen 2 cornsnakes constrict their prays in my life lolol). The only good thing you could have done, was leave the room and let the snake learn from his mistake. Constricting musn't be any less harmfull than being eaten from the other end... And as for frozen thawed, many are gazed before being frozen, but if you check closely, a lot of them are stabbed with soem sort of needle (especially on linkies).

[lordkovacs]

if anything LadyH. you had a learning experience. Nothing you did was devestating..you learn from your mistakes, as everyone here has. ya know what would be fun? If everyone could swallow their pride and start a thread of the stupidest thing y ou have ever done as a herper. that would be funny!
MIKE

[Lisa]

I don't like feeding live either. Just tears at my heart strings. We breed our own rats so we have to kill them ourselves too and that hurts too, I always cry when I do it. When my dog died I couldn't feed the snakes for 2 weeks (all but 2 eat f/t) and I couldn't kill any rats or mice in that time either. Anyways I understand why you don't like feeding live and hope you can get it over to f/t asap.

[djc3674]

Sure, they do it in the wild, but half the reason we keep them in captivity is they don't have the endure the crap they would normally.

So what your saying Zoe is that its okay for us humans to take animals out of there natural habitat for our own pleasure so they dont have to endure crap??? WTF...are you kidding me?? I think the snake would rather deal w/ the dangers of its NATURAL surroundings that spend its life in a glass enclosure. But for our own enjoyment we keep exotic animals.
Thats what I meant when I said its more natural that it kills its prey itself. It gives the snake a chance to use its senses the way its designed to as it hunts for its food.
I didnt mean that the snake can rationally make a decision weather it wants to eat that dead piece of meat that you shake infront of it or the fresh live prey running around its enclosure. But from what I have learned, live prey often helps strike a feeding response. YOU should know this Zoe, I have read some of your posts and I think often times you have good information. But here I disagree with you. I would think your concern would be with your animals and if that means feeding live so a baby snake doesnt go without food for to long of a time, then so be it.

I almost purchased a boa from a breeder that told me that his snakes dont even constrict anymore cause they are so used to being hand fed. What good is that? Basically he turnes contstrictors into puppy dogs.

I am not a heartless bast***d, I do feel sympathy for them. But I also realize that my snake has to eat and thats more important.

Besides f/t, whats the difference between the snake killing its prey or someone pulling its tail to break its neck or wacking it on a hard surface. I mean basically your killing the thing anyway, it may be a bit faster, but your still killing it by hand. Anyway, I guess this is a topic that can be argued til the end of time. People are set in their ways and there really isnt a point in goin on about it anymore.
But live or dead, she shouldnt of pulled the prey out of its mouth. All she did was stress the thing out. I do realize that she learned from this and hopefully will be able to stomach feeding her pets in the future or else she should give up reptiles and buy a bird.

[The_Omen]

Besides f/t, whats the difference between the snake killing its prey or someone pulling its tail to break its neck or wacking it on a hard surface.

The biggest difference is that dead food doesn't bite back.

[djc3674]

The biggest difference is that dead food doesn't bite back.

Thats obvious Omen duh!. What I was getting at was the fact that they are soooo concerned with the mice suffering, but dont have a problem with killing it by hand. As I said in one of the other replies. I can certainly understand feeding pre-killed when dealing with large prey. Rats are vicious and I wouldnt want my snake getting hurt. I was speaking specifically about feeding live pinkies or fuzzies, even small adult mice, to baby snakes to keep them feeding. Why starve a snake because your so damn set on getting it to eat something already dead. Your messing with the snakes instinct to smell food and hunt it down. Believe me at some point, I will probably try to switch my baby hog over to pre-killed. He has awesome markings and color and I wouldnt want him getting bit up and scarred..let alone injured or killed.
But I certainly wont starve him to do it. If he insists on live prey..well then live prey he will get.
But for now...he loves going after fuzzy mice. After he is done eating he keeps striking at movements. I think the live prey really get a feed response in baby snakes.

[lordkovacs]

djc.....I can understand your point, and it does make sense. in the wild the snake would eat live, so if we are to create the most natural environ. for hte snake, then the food it eats should be alive. However, people have a sensitivity to animals, and particularly to seeing them in pain. If this is the case, then it doesn't matter if it's a rat or a dog or a snake. It's not controllable. Personally as a child, I was never into burning ants with a magnifying glass, or torturing frogs or whatever...I just couldn't do it. So when it came time to feed my snake for the first time, I went f/t. Mistake? perhaps... but isn't it true that in some snakes it's hard to switchover to f/t if you have been feeding it live since it was a baby/neo? Wouldn't that turn out to be more stressful? i mean, you said it yourself that feeding f/t may be better as it grows, well, what's the diff.? If my snakes feed immediately on f/t are they less healthy then yours? I don't think so. I do, however, try to immitate a live prey when I feed, and make sure the prey is warm, etc. It must work cause every time I feed, the snake coils...and when it does, I just offer a little resistance. Just my thoughts,
MIKE

[djc3674]

lord...I can see your point as well. I dont know if yours are less healthy. From what I have read...live prey has more nutritional value then something that has been killed who knows when and frozen for who knows how long. Basically I was trying to say that I would rather have my baby snake eat live then not eat at all. IF you can start a baby out on f/t or p/k and they have no problem with it..then so be it. But, if its refusing to eat p/k or f/t...and the owner is stubborn about feeding live and would rather see the snake go without food until it does it p/k or f/t..then I dont think thats right. I would think that as reptile owners, one understands about the food chain. If you cant take the fact that a living creature is dying for another to live...then you shouldnt own those kinds of pets. Get a dog, cat, bird..etc. I mean we as humans eat meat...and millions of animals are killed each year so we can dine on the best beef...chicken etc. So whats the difference...they are led to slaughter as well. How bout people that fish...I mean they reel a fish in with hook through its lip...stick it in a pale...bring it home...chop its head off..clean it out...and fry it in a pan. But so many people are against dropping a live mouse in a tank for there pet to eat. I dont get it I guess. I'm not saying I dont feel bad for the prey, but it comes with owning reptiles.

[lordkovacs]

oh, i totally agree. if it has trouble feeding on f/t you gotta make sure you find something that it will eat. and you're right, many people are hypocritical, however, it's something learned that's not so easy to "unlearn". we are raised to be sensitive to animals (well, many of us are), so when it comes to a situation like this, some are more sensitive to the prey then others...it's not something you can control. However, the more you do it, the more de-sensitized you become. So, if I was to start feeding live, in a few years it wouldn't effect my psyche as much as it would now. You are right though, that it MUST be whatever is best for the pet...have to put personal feelings aside. I guess I'm just lucky that I have NEVER had a problem feeding f/t. As for f/t loosing their nutritional value... that's true depending on how long it's been frozen for. I personally go to a store that I know breeds the rats and goes through so many that there are none that have been frozen longer then a week. If you go to a low volume store, you may have to pay more attention that sorta thing.
I guess I can sum by saying that everyone has their own style, own way of caring for their herps. Provided the keeper is providing educated care for the reptile, that's the main thing. feeding live has it's advantages, as it has it's disadvantages.
Anyway, good posts!
Cheers all,
MIKE