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[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by Andy_G

The one by John Courteney Smith mentions that UV lighting helps with shedding and growth...I have to mention that I've never used UV lighting for snakes yet have never had slow growers or bad sheds aside from perhaps a handful of tail tips over the years... Nothing mentioned about relative humidity, substrate choices, different prey items and the differences in nutrition...just UV. How can that not be regarded at best as extremely subjective?

The second paper has the following; "..This paper does not, however, establish whether snakes do synthesise vitamin D3 in the skin..." "...Nature typically utilises free resources very effectively; we should not be surprised if it turns out that very few snake species are unable to synthesise vitamin D3 in the skin under natual UVB light." It also goes on to mention that there is less risk of skin damage from the sun in comparison to one of the products studied.

@ Danny, that paper above mentions that it was actually a light with high UVB output, not UVC as you mentioned...I believe that's the same paper you're referring to? I will continue to use LED light in my vivs to enhance aesthetics. Practically everything so far I have read including what you has posted in months' past, although creating a bit of a grey area rather than black and white and very intriguing, seems subjectively biased. As far as your challenge is concerned, the desire for me to prove what you're asking simply isn't there. Why you ask? Well, when a new idea or method of keeping is domonstrated and the goal is for it to be accepted, it should really be proven in order for that to happen, not the other way around. I'll use UV lighting when it's demonstrated objectively that there is a benefit and will continue to raise, breed and sell perfectly healthy snakes without it just like the thousands of breeders before me. You will use UV because you think your snakes benefit from it, and there's nothing wrong with what either of us are doing at the end of the day. Still skeptical...intrigued...but skeptical.

You can ask Fran directly - it is her who has corrected her own research as that paper is somewhat old.

As to breeding success I don't think breeding in and of itself is proof of good or bad husbandry. Many animals will breed successfully in substandard conditions - think of puppy farms. Even humans will breed under sub par conditions.

Indeed I can post details of a recent paper that specifically demonstrated snakes breed when stressed.

Note I'm not for one minute suggesting you or anyone else on here keeps their snakes in substandard conditions - simply that breeding success is not necessarily an outright indicator.

As I say - why not try it with one of your snakes and see if you notice any behavioural changes. I was sceptical and tried it with my boa and the change was pretty immediate and very noticeable.

Francis Cosquieri who I cited earlier spends many $1000's a year on tubes so convinced is he both through the research and his own observations. By his own admission be wished that it was demonstrably shown to be not required as he would save himself a fortune.

TRD was sceptical and tried it and was very surprised by the results.

I will post details of plenty of papers also.

Ultimately yes it's a choice but when someone asks question is uv required the answer 'no' should be supported by the science to back it up just as the answer 'Yes' should be.

TRD and others have provided some papers to support the yes camp and i will post more later. I'm still waiting for papers to support the no camp.

[fedeCF]

I just found some more interesting articles related to snake and uvb light exposure. Ore is just an exerpt from an article published on zoo biology, vol 29 issue #3. The link here.

The other is from a senior thesis that study how UVB Radiation Affects the Quality of the Female Sexual Attractiveness Pheromone of the Red-Sided Garter Snake. Here the exerpt (with a link to download the .doc file)

[fedeCF]

Also this research.

It's entitled Production of cutaneous vitamin D3 after UVB
radiation in reptiles and amphibians. In the species studied ball python and boa constrictor are included together with few other snakes

[chairman]

Providing low level uvb for snakes can be cheap and easy... virtually all commercial fluorescent bulbs emit uvb. Even compact fluorescents emit some uvb. The amount isn't enough for species that genuinely require uvb for basking.

I have used compact fluorescents to provide lighting in cages in the past. The common cfl bulbs generally raised ambient temperatures by about 5-10 degrees Fahrenheit and the surfaces of the fixtures approached 100 F, a pretty popular basking spot surface temp for many species. The only behaviour changes that I observed were consistent with seeking heat, but then again I'm really only familiar with uv basking indicators in lizards and turtles. I can't say that I noticed any other improvements but then this was very low level uvb exposure, not a bulb designed to maximize its output.

[Skipper7]

Sorry for th late reply FWK. I heard back from Fran and she sent some papers. I'll read through them tonight and then post them here.

EDIT: Will have to wait till I have access to my computer. Can't open the Dropbox file on iPad.

[TRD]

Actually it is shown that snakes synthesize D3 through their skin;
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18241029

Reptile vision also requires the availability of UVa, as well as the research that snakes have far better eyes than is generally assumed in the hobby (ie- most people think they have limited vision);
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/je.../1931.full.pdf

Some species are truly daytime basking and do not have a diet of 100% rodents. F.e. grass snakes, garter snakes, ... these species benefit hugely from UVb exposure. Also in the wild you'll find them basking in the sunshine all the time.

In general some species are considered in the hobby of no need for UV, like Crested Gecko's, or Leopard Gecko's.. yet we have to supplement them with D3 - I wonder why.

There are more papers on the benefits of UV. You could find many of the AAH FB group, or on websites dedicated to UV lighting for reptiles like UV Guide UK - Ultraviolet Light for Reptiles - UVB reptile lighting on test

I'm not so short sighted that I would say "snakes need UV" but I do believe that adding proper UV lighting has health benefits. I can tell from my own experience that my snakes are now open and active during daytime, basking and doing their thing, and I keep primarily kings and milks who previously where hiding all day every day. They only started to come out and bask after I added UV light. That must mean something.

[pinefamily]

I've been following this thread with interest. This has been a widely debated topic here in Australia as well.
General consensus over here is that, while it doesn't harm them, UV is not essential for Aussie snakes. No, I don't have any papers or research to back that up, only anecdotal evidence from people that have been in the hobby for decades.
From my own experience, the only snake we ever offered UV to actually lightened in skin colour. Our bredli turned a very pale tan colour. Once again, only an anecdote.

[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by pinefamily

I've been following this thread with interest. This has been a widely debated topic here in Australia as well.
General consensus over here is that, while it doesn't harm them, UV is not essential for Aussie snakes. No, I don't have any papers or research to back that up, only anecdotal evidence from people that have been in the hobby for decades.
From my own experience, the only snake we ever offered UV to actually lightened in skin colour. Our bredli turned a very pale tan colour. Once again, only an anecdote.

Which is kind of funny given you guys have one of the highest UV indicies in the world. I'll take science over anedoctes any day. There are so many papers now that show uv to be highly beneficial that to me it's a no brainer.

I would also suggest that the skin turning paler would suggest that the snake was trying to absorb more UV and thus was benefiting from it. Paler skin generally = higher UV absorption. Also snakes often 'colour up' under UV.