possiable ackie morphs

Gatorhunter1231 · 01-06-13, 09:32 PM

Here is my little secrets that I have been keeping for two weeks. These could prove out to be genetic. Pics are worth a thousand words so Ill let the pics talk.

even though this one isnt stripped I still gave him some photo time. He has a blotchy spots and sticks out from the other 6 "regulars".

there is a total of 9 ackies from this clutch. There was 10 but one passed on after an hour from hatching. It was a partial strip.
Dustin B.

dinosaurdammit · 01-06-13, 09:34 PM

its like an ackie motley

Pirarucu · 01-06-13, 09:38 PM

Holy cow! That is insane! Are you selling them or keeping them? I'm guessing the latter?

Gatorhunter1231 · 01-06-13, 10:05 PM

keeping and test for genetics on the two stripped and on the "normals". If it turns out to be genetic then I need to figure out if it is recessive, dominant, etc and more importantly if there is a super form

Pirarucu · 01-06-13, 10:31 PM

If the parents are unrelated (I believe they are?) then unfortunately it's very unlikely it's genetic. If it was just one it could be, but it's extremely unlikely that the same mutation would happen in two individuals. That leaves one or both of the parents having the gene, which if they are unrelated and normal looking, is ruled out.
I'm guessing it has something to do with incubation. In Burmese Pythons, fluctuating incubation temperatures are thought to be the cause of striped Burms that pop up every now and then. Those individuals are also undersized, I have yet to see a striped burm over seven or eight feet.

Gregg M · 01-07-13, 07:02 PM

It was told to me by a few individuals when I produced my tiger hognose snakes that it was just a fluke and it could not be genetic because of the amount that hatched. Neither parent had any tiger markings. My first clutch from them produced all tigers. Turns out that my tigers are indeed genetic because I have produced them 3 years in a row. 2 of those years from my male tiger that I produced in that first clutch to unrelated females, even though I was told it was incubation temp fluctuations that caused it and it could not be reproduced. LOL. This year we will be breeding tiger to tiger to figure out how the genetics are working.

Very rarely does a simple incubation temperature fluctuation cause an extreme pattern abberancy. In fact it is not proven that it will cause any abberancy at all.

Also, we need to keep in mind that animals do not have to show a mutation to carry the genes. There could be a multitude of genes working together to cause this mutation. It does not even have to be the same gene or genetic mutation to produce a new morph.

My guess would be polygenic before incubation induced.

Anyway, my point is, nothing can be ruled out until more test breeding is done. This could very well be a genetic pattern morph that can be passed on to other generations. If it is passed down, the mode of inheritance needs to be figured out.

I hope it is genetic because I want me some striped red ackies!!! LOL

Dustin,
Congrats on those awesome ackies bro. Put me on the waiting list!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

I really hope their pattern doesn't break up as leopard gecko stripes do.

That is not likely to happen BB. Leopard gecko patterns break up naturally. This is something that does not happen in varanids. If anything patterns on varanids expand and become enhanced as the animal grows.

BarelyBreathing · 01-08-13, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg M

It was told to me by a few individuals when I produced my tiger hognose snakes that it was just a fluke and it could not be genetic because of the amount that hatched. Neither parent had any tiger markings. My first clutch from them produced all tigers. Turns out that my tigers are indeed genetic because I have produced them 3 years in a row. 2 of those years from my male tiger that I produced in that first clutch to unrelated females, even though I was told it was incubation temp fluctuations that caused it and it could not be reproduced. LOL. This year we will be breeding tiger to tiger to figure out how the genetics are working.

Very rarely does a simple incubation temperature fluctuation cause an extreme pattern abberancy. In fact it is not proven that it will cause any abberancy at all.

Also, we need to keep in mind that animals do not have to show a mutation to carry the genes. There could be a multitude of genes working together to cause this mutation. It does not even have to be the same gene or genetic mutation to produce a new morph.

My guess would be polygenic before incubation induced.

Anyway, my point is, nothing can be ruled out until more test breeding is done. This could very well be a genetic pattern morph that can be passed on to other generations. If it is passed down, the mode of inheritance needs to be figured out.

I hope it is genetic because I want me some striped red ackies!!! LOL

Dustin,
Congrats on those awesome ackies bro. Put me on the waiting list!!!!

That is not likely to happen BB. Leopard gecko patterns break up naturally. This is something that does not happen in varanids. If anything patterns on varanids expand and become enhanced as the animal grows.

I so hope you're right!

Robyn@SYR · 01-08-13, 05:27 PM

A genetically striped Ackie would be a boon to the monitor world! Best of luck!

zwhitman · 01-09-13, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

If the parents are unrelated (I believe they are?) then unfortunately it's very unlikely it's genetic. If it was just one it could be, but it's extremely unlikely that the same mutation would happen in two individuals. That leaves one or both of the parents having the gene, which if they are unrelated and normal looking, is ruled out.
I'm guessing it has something to do with incubation. In Burmese Pythons, fluctuating incubation temperatures are thought to be the cause of striped Burms that pop up every now and then. Those individuals are also undersized, I have yet to see a striped burm over seven or eight feet.

Sorry man but this is not correct. If the mutation were a random novel mutation, IE both parents are normal but produced one sperm or egg cell that had a point mutation, then you would expect a single unique animal in a clutch of normals. If the parents are both het for a rare mutation, then you would expect a mix of the mutation and the normals. If both the parents are normal looking than I would not think that this will be codom/super, recessive is possible though.

The small size of the originating ackie gene pool could be viewed in 2 ways. On the one hand, small gene pools concentrate rare alleles, increasing the likelihood that rare hets will breed. On the other hand, this small gene pool has been fairly well intermixed and nothing unusual has popped out... yet. Erratic temps have certainly caused striping but I am only aware of this being documented in snakes. The fact that this is the first clutch from a new male is also interesting.

The bottom line is that we wont know anything until he proves em out! Regardless they are beautiful and even if not a morph they would be awesome to do some line breeding to refine the look. Good luck man!

Pirarucu · 01-09-13, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwhitman

Sorry man but this is not correct. If the mutation were a random novel mutation, IE both parents are normal but produced one sperm or egg cell that had a point mutation, then you would expect a single unique animal in a clutch of normals. If the parents are both het for a rare mutation, then you would expect a mix of the mutation and the normals. If both the parents are normal looking than I would not think that this will be codom/super, recessive is possible though.

The small size of the originating ackie gene pool could be viewed in 2 ways. On the one hand, small gene pools concentrate rare alleles, increasing the likelihood that rare hets will breed. On the other hand, this small gene pool has been fairly well intermixed and nothing unusual has popped out... yet. Erratic temps have certainly caused striping but I am only aware of this being documented in snakes. The fact that this is the first clutch from a new male is also interesting.

The bottom line is that we wont know anything until he proves em out! Regardless they are beautiful and even if not a morph they would be awesome to do some line breeding to refine the look. Good luck man!

However the same concept applies to the parents that applies to the babies. It's unlikely that two animals presumably not siblings would both be het for a recessive gene that hasn't been seen before. If striped Ackies had turned up before then it would be more plausible, but they haven't so far as we know.
I am well aware the temps causing striping has only been documented in snakes, that was merely a suggestion, not a definite conclusion. Monitors have not been bred as much as snakes, we don't know what unusual conditions may or may not cause in Varanids.
Then of course we must remember that the field of genetics is still largely speculation and guesswork, and unexplained things still happen. Perhaps these Ackies are the result of a type of gene yet unknown to science.
I agree, the bottom line is we can do nothing but guess for the moment. Raise them up and prove them out!

EmbraceCalamity · 01-09-13, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

However the same concept applies to the parents that applies to the babies. It's unlikely that two animals presumably not siblings would both be het for a recessive gene that hasn't been seen before. If striped Ackies had turned up before then it would be more plausible, but they haven't so far as we know.
I am well aware the temps causing striping has only been documented in snakes, that was merely a suggestion, not a definite conclusion. Monitors have not been bred as much as snakes, we don't know what unusual conditions may or may not cause in Varanids.
Then of course we must remember that the field of genetics is still largely speculation and guesswork, and unexplained things still happen. Perhaps these Ackies are the result of a type of gene yet unknown to science.
I agree, the bottom line is we can do nothing but guess for the moment. Raise them up and prove them out!

The first post says:

Quote:

there is a total of 9 ackies from this clutch. There was 10 but one passed on after an hour from hatching. It was a partial strip.

I don't think they're unrelated.

~Maggot

Pirarucu · 01-09-13, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmbraceCalamity

The first post says:I don't think they're unrelated.

~Maggot

I am talking about the parents, not the striped babies.

Pirarucu · 01-06-13, 10:32 PM

If the parents are unrelated (I believe they are?) then unfortunately it's very unlikely it's genetic. If it was just one it could be, but it's extremely unlikely that the same mutation would happen in two individuals. That leaves one or both of the parents having the gene, which if they are unrelated and normal looking, is ruled out.
I'm guessing it has something to do with incubation. In Burmese Pythons, fluctuating incubation temperatures are thought to be the cause of striped Burms that pop up every now and then. Those individuals are also undersized, I have yet to see a striped burm over seven or eight feet.

BarelyBreathing · 01-06-13, 10:52 PM

Well that's interesting. AWESOME! Congratulations.

Gatorhunter1231 · 01-07-13, 06:14 AM

That incubation method is crap at least as far as these guys are concerned. Varying temps have caused crooked spines, hatch with egg sacs or large die offs after hatching. I have had ackies range from 100s down to low 80s and never had stripping before. These held constant at 86.5 controlled by herpstat (digital) and heat supplied by heat tape. Now they did become turgid the last month and that could be it. However the father is odd himself and really the only wild card in this. He is new where everything else has become more
constant. I will test it out and see. If it doesn't turn out to be like a normal morph in terms of recessive, dominant, etc then I might be able to line breed it like some do for colors.

One last fun piece of info. For the most part, all ackies in the USA are related. Most ackies derived from a few individuals since Australia isn't large into exporting/importing. Bloodlines from Europe and Canada would be exceptions to this rule since I'm not sure about their origins. Anyone know how many ackies fr brought over?