I'm interested in your opinion about my bull snake

herplovr_bri89 · 11-19-12, 10:46 AM

I've been told that Leaya, my 4 year old 6 foot Bull Snake's behavior, is odd for her species. What do you think?

I got her directly from a breeder when she was 3 months old and she was never snippy and LOVED being held.
She bit ONCE when she was young but that was due to the fact that my mom was hand feeding and held the mouse around the middle (thawed). She got mom's finger, but the way Leaya reacted was incredible. She REFUSED to eat that mouse, I had to toss it, and she.nudged mom's finger like she was apologizing. Ever since, even with the tongs, she runs her nose up and down the rat, then takes it VERY cautiously. And in 4 years I've only been bitten once.
She has NEVER musked, she only snorts if I take her outside and too many of the neighborhood kids rush up to see her, and all try to pet her at once. She doesn't even HISS (and I'm serious she's only really hissed, sounding like a waterspout 1 time!) Let alone triangle her head or tail rattle.
Leaya also seems to be protective. She was challenging one of our cats for hissing at me, when my illness put me on the ground she made her nose bleed trying to get out. And for the first time, she struck at my mom for yelling at me.
Plus she DANCES only to Klove Radio, and when I sing along with it, she won't do.it with any other station. And she's been doing that all her life.

So on a scale of 1-10 how weird is she for a bull snake?

SpOoKy · 11-19-12, 10:55 AM

I think you are mistaking normal behavior for a snake with having emotions.

Quote:

She REFUSED to eat that mouse, I had to toss it, and she.nudged mom's finger like she was apologizing.

snakes don't apologize for natural reactions. She smelled like mouse, snake strikes and realized it wasn't a mouse.

Quote:

She was challenging one of our cats for hissing at me

Defensive behavior. Not for hissing at you, the snake felt threatened by the cat.

Quote:

And for the first time, she struck at my mom for yelling at me.

Not for yelling at you.

Snakes don't think the same way we do.

I actually have 2 bull snakes myself and would love to see some pictures

herplovr_bri89 · 11-19-12, 11:09 AM

I'll get some up as soon as I can, my phone's not all that great but she's about to shed and she always looks the best after she does.

So it was normal with the cat? She was around my neck and I was standing up, the cat was on the bed. She was still pretty small, about a foot long, maybe as wide as a nickel, i would think her instinct would be to flee? Not shot down my arm at the cat.

EmbraceCalamity · 11-19-12, 11:20 AM

Anthropomorphism is an easy thing to fall into, but snakes aren't people. You can't apply our feelings, thoughts, intentions, or reactions to a snake. It's misguided at best and dangerous at worst.

~Maggot

Lankyrob · 11-19-12, 11:40 AM

If you are seriousin what you are saying then you need to do a LOT of reading about snakes and their abilities to "feel".

Personally i smell a whiff of troll.... Anyone else?

herplovr_bri89 · 11-19-12, 12:06 PM

Actually i did over a YEARs worth of research before i got her, I'm a member of the Arizona Herpetological Association! The President of the AHA himself said he's never seen a snake like her! I have also rescued, nursed back, tamed, and rehomed 3 others all different types. Everyone who meet's Leaya says she doesn't behave anything like most snakes.

EmbraceCalamity · 11-19-12, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by herplovr_bri89

Actually i did over a YEARs worth of research before i got her, I'm a member of the Arizona Herpetological Association! The President of the AHA himself said he's never seen a snake like her! I have also rescued, nursed back, tamed, and rehomed 3 others all different types. Everyone who meet's Leaya says she doesn't behave anything like most snakes.

So? Not all animals are the same. It's to be expected that some will be quirky. But unless you're saying that your particular snake has an extreme mutation in its brain that puts its cognitive abilities unrealistically beyond the rest of its species, then it's just a snake that behaves a little oddly. By saying it's different from all other snakes, therefore it feels emotions while all other snakes are physically and cognitively incapable is, frankly, ridiculous.

~Maggot

jarich · 11-19-12, 01:21 PM

Yikes, lighten up everyone.

Sounds like you have a very chill bull snake, herplovr. I have a feeling your snake was probably just hissing at the cat in protection of itself, but hey, what difference does it make either way. Glad you have been able to help some other reptiles in need and that you have a snake you really love.

Welcome to the forum!

Gungirl · 11-19-12, 03:01 PM

Keep the snake away from the cat.. that is not a smart move.

Snakes have no feelings.. everything you saw you put your emotions onto. Not a magical new snake with emotions.

herplovr_bri89 · 11-19-12, 08:04 PM

Thanks jarich

And everyone lets just agree to disagree on the feelings matter because everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Perhaps someone could help me out with this part

She has NEVER musked, she only snorts if I take her outside and too many of the neighborhood kids rush up to see her, and all try to pet her at once. She doesn't even HISS (and I'm serious she's only really hissed, sounding like a waterspout 1 time!) Let alone triangle her head or tail rattle.

From all the discussions I've had with other Bull owners, and all the books and websites I've read, they are usually a bit more aggressive. And really she doesn't hiss at the cats, she's in a 6 foot long wooden vivarium that sits on the floor. 4 feet high, and 2 feet wide, with a plexiglass sliding front door, custom built with a pit in the middle so she can dig all she wants. Too heavy and tall to put it on anything though. When she comes out the cats gather in front and she gets up on the plexiglass and sways back and forth. I'll have to get a picture up so u can see. Also, even though she's in blue phase right now, the viv has vents on the sides, i caught her last night with her head just resting up there, nose to nose with one of the cats! If i can get my phone to cooperate i'll post a pic

Lankyrob · 11-20-12, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by herplovr_bri89

Thanks jarich

And everyone lets just agree to disagree on the feelings matter because everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Perhaps someone could help me out with this part

She has NEVER musked, she only snorts if I take her outside and too many of the neighborhood kids rush up to see her, and all try to pet her at once. She doesn't even HISS (and I'm serious she's only really hissed, sounding like a waterspout 1 time!) Let alone triangle her head or tail rattle.

From all the discussions I've had with other Bull owners, and all the books and websites I've read, they are usually a bit more aggressive. And really she doesn't hiss at the cats, she's in a 6 foot long wooden vivarium that sits on the floor. 4 feet high, and 2 feet wide, with a plexiglass sliding front door, custom built with a pit in the middle so she can dig all she wants. Too heavy and tall to put it on anything though. When she comes out the cats gather in front and she gets up on the plexiglass and sways back and forth. I'll have to get a picture up so u can see. Also, even though she's in blue phase right now, the viv has vents on the sides, i caught her last night with her head just resting up there, nose to nose with one of the cats! If i can get my phone to cooperate i'll post a pic

IT is not an opinion it is fact that they dont have the brain requirements to "feel" - they run on natural instinct only

Ryodraco · 11-22-12, 09:10 PM

I hope I don't upset anyone by replying to this. Basically I wanted to comment on one other comment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lankyrob

IT is not an opinion it is fact that they dont have the brain requirements to "feel" - they run on natural instinct only

While I think giving snakes human emotions is wrong, I think it's also a bit much to claim they run only on instincts. That was once thought to be true for all animals, and now we know it isn't.

Snakes can certainly learn and remember to a limited degree (different individuals favoring different prey, getting used to handling, returning to den sites year after year), so natural instinct is not their only resource. In the sense that aggressiveness and behavior varies from one individual to the next we could even say they have personalities.

As for social behavior, with all the complex social behaviors that have been discovered in lizards in recent years I wouldn't be surprised if some snakes end up being more complex socially than we currently understand them to be.

But does a snake feel like a human? Of course not. I recall one program addressing this where someone stated that they perhaps appreciate being fed, and may tolerate people they are used to more than strangers, but this does not equate to the kind of bond that some seem to seek with snakes. I say we have to appreciate them on their terms, imagining we are important to them as anything more than a provider of food (and perhaps warmth at times) is ultimately only for our own gratification.

**Aaron_S** · 11-20-12, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by herplovr_bri89

...And everyone lets just agree to disagree on the feelings matter because everyone is entitled to their opinion....

So you come here looking for opinions and thoughts and when they don't side with your own, you just discredit everything that everyone is saying? Might as well leave the forum now as you certainly won't gain anything from us with that closed mind.

In regards to your snake, it's simply acting like a regular, docile snake. Nothing special.

Wama · 11-20-12, 11:18 AM

She isn't odd........ your very lucky

herplovr_bri89 · 11-20-12, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

So you come here looking for opinions and thoughts and when they don't side with your own, you just discredit everything that everyone is saying? Might as well leave the forum now as you certainly won't gain anything from us with that closed mind.

In regards to your snake, it's simply acting like a regular, docile snake. Nothing special.

Wama thank you, you seem to be one of the few decent ones jarich you too, so please disregard this message

You people DRIVE new snake owners away!! I've seen it on plenty of other threads, they come looking for help and you blast them if they don't agree with you, you criticize EVERYTHING without saying anything positive, you call them names (if anyone is a troll that honor goes to you phonies a REAL Herp lover and DECENT OWNER would be eager to help) plus you judge without knowing a d**m thing. If you have NEVER MET HER then how can you possibly judge an animal I've raised from an infant. I was simply trying to introduce myself and Leaya who is more than a snake to me, I see her as my own child seeing as i might not ever have any actual children.

Maybe she is so different because i don't use her simply for breeding purposes, or because i wanted something bad a**. She chose ME. I went to that breeder to purchase a Kingsnake but when she came right out of her clutch and wrapped around my arm i knew SHE was the one i should buy.

Leaya has quite literally SAVED MY LIFE, I have 2 aneurysm sitting in my brain and when i went down LEAYA was they only one who brought me back! So excuse me for getting protective and I'm sorry YOU'VE never thought of your herps as anything more than a cold beast that would bite you as soon as look at you. MAYBE if you showed them as much love and protected them as fiercely as I do Leaya they might have shown you a little in return. YOUR LOSS! And if you jerks treat your animals anything like you treat new forum members who don't share YOUR SIMPLE CLOSED MINDED VIEWS then i feel REALLY sorry for them.

It seems you mainly use this forum to bash other owners for not sharing your views, you say snakes don't have emotions. Then why does the female King Cobra in the wild, create an incubated nest, lay eggs, then wrap her body around the nest to both keep the eggs warm and aggressively protects them from any threat. Then when the eggs hatch she leaves to feed so she won't eat her young, then comes back to protect them.
Got three words for you: We don't know. Snakes are one of the creatures that man understands very little about, so unless you actually have a snakes brain in your head none of you know for certain anything that goes on in it.