would you use a jag with neuro problem to breed?

Freebody · 08-05-10, 09:05 PM

would you use a snake you were told was perfectly healthy and then find out the breeding pair you got, the jag male you got has neuro problems and still keep them and breed them or would you call the breeder which was selling the perfectly healthy mature breeding pair and say i want my money back? i really like them but i only got them on my credit card so i can breed them this year and make my money back as well as having the 2 snakes that i have been wanting to buy someday as well as finnaly enjoy the whole breeding process. im not sure what to do but im thinking it would be the more moral thing to return them even know im going to miss them and not make money on them, i could do as he did buy them breed them once and sell them again, but i dont really like the idea of breeding new snakes from a bloodline i know is bad.... hmm what would you do?

Da Beast · 08-05-10, 09:22 PM

get your cash back if you can

infernalis · 08-05-10, 09:23 PM

Myself, I would never breed any animal that could possibly pass a defective gene on to it's offspring.

But that's just me.

Freebody · 08-05-10, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

Myself, I would never breed any animal that could possibly pass a defective gene on to it's offspring.

But that's just me.

i dont like the idea either. he said he only had them a few months before breed them so i dont want to go saying hes trashy breeder yet, we will se how he resolves the issue first, he may not been aware and is sorry and gives my cash back with no problems. time will tell i just sent him an email to trade males if hes got one or give my money back on both.

.: Laura :. · 08-06-10, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

Myself, I would never breed any animal that could possibly pass a defective gene on to it's offspring.

But that's just me.

I completely agree

bladeblaster · 08-06-10, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

Myself, I would never breed any animal that could possibly pass a defective gene on to it's offspring.

But that's just me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by .: Laura :.

I completely agree

but what constitutes a 'defective' gene? Albinism is a result of 'defective' / 'abnormal' genes, as is every other mutation.

What it comes down to the the quality of life we percieve the animal to have with these defective genes, and that is very much opinion based.

shaunyboy · 08-08-10, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

Myself, I would never breed any animal that could possibly pass a defective gene on to it's offspring.

But that's just me.

imo you would never breed a jag if you applied that theory to them mate.imo there is always a risk of neuro with the offspring.spider balls have a similar issue.ive read the original spider was a wild caught speciman thats still living.after it passes im sure a full set of tests will be done to see if it sheds some light on the problem.some say theres a part of the brain missing others put it down to a chromosone problem.guess we will have to wait and see the outcome of a post mortem.

to be honest i probaly would breed once.then once i seen the outcome that would answer my question of do i breed it again or sell it on as a pet.

at one end of the scale full corkscrews which imo is bound to affect the snake in questions day to day life.

the other end of the scale slight head wobbles imo does not affect the day to day life of the snake.

most jags show some degree of neuro issues.i am currently speaking to a guy in europe that knows the guy (jan eric engell) who made the first jag.he wreckons none of jans jags show any neuro issues.he puts it down to jans bloodlines have not been bred back to each other (jag to jag).also most jags that started the jag thing were from jag to jag breeding.his theory is when breeding jag to jag you create supers (leucistic jaguars).the longest a leucy has survived is a few hours out the egg.he wreckons its a chromosone problem.that chromosone problem is passed to any jags produced in that pairing.so manifests itself as the jag neuro issue.

where in the states and europe in general the bloodlines have been bred back to themselves so many times its created this neuro issue.

re you breeding yours

i have heard of jags with bad neuro signs creating jags with no or slight neuro signs.

i have also heard of jags showing next to no neuro signs creating hatchlings that show a lot of neuro issues.

from what i can gather you really cannot predict the outcome.

imo its seems to be bothering you mate.so why not try and get your cash back from the guy.he did after all say they were healthy snakes.the neuro thing is a health issue so if he's decent he will refund you.i'm thinking that since he was'nt honest enough to tell you in the first place that he may not be the best guy in the world to get a refund from.

i hope you get things sorted mate.

all the best shaun

just read the rest of your thread and its all sorted.glad your happy mate.

Da Beast · 08-05-10, 09:25 PM

what store/breeder did you buy the snakes from

infernalis · 08-05-10, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Da Beast

what store/breeder did you buy the snakes from

I will allow an answer, but be advised we are not the BOI. so please no bashing.

infernalis · 08-05-10, 09:43 PM

Good luck!! fingers crossed.

Da Beast · 08-05-10, 09:44 PM

BOI????? wasn't planning on any bashing, wandering cause i live close to Freebody and if they wont give a warranty on there animals i want to stay away from them

percey39 · 08-05-10, 10:14 PM

I would not breed them myself as i believe the same as Wayne does. In saying that there are numerous jags being bred with this issue and an incredible number of jags with neuro issues out there. It is very common as Shaun has said in both jags and spider morphs. Also i have heard of issues similar with consistant line breeding, but in saying that there is a hell of a lot of snakes that if you traced back bloodlines would be inbred and over time. Say you buy a pair from two different breeders there is a fair chance these snakes could be related.
Good luck if you try to return the snakes, as i know first hand there are some nasty people in this hobby.

Freebody · 08-05-10, 11:34 PM

thats why i was thinking about keeping them as i could get a different jag that has no signs and then turns out to be the brother of the snake im giving up lol and i hate the idea of giving them back to this guy that had them in such tiny cages. the femal is a beautifull bredle and hes real nice looking as well.i would like to just breed them once and keep them but im not sure if i can in good concsience,if i do and worst come to play, i would feel terrible knowing it could have been avoided. well he has not messaged me back yet and he said he had bread her to 2 different males this year for the clutch of eggs he took from this pair, why i dont know but he may trade for the other jag male if it was his.i hate the idea of giving them up now that i got them home and held them and had names for them already

i got a big heart when it come to animals.i might keep them anyways poor snakes need some loving 2,specially a slightly brain damaged one, its really rather slight neuro problems, but he does have it.

bladeblaster · 08-06-10, 01:15 AM

The jag neuro issue is not bloodline related, it crops up in any jag. Also breeding from an animal that displays the trait does not mean that the offspring will show the trait, conversely breeding from animals that don;t show the trait can produce offspring that do show the trait.

If you are going to breed jags its just something that you just have to accept. I personally believe that pretty much all jags carry the problem its just that some are so slight that you can't really notice it, but trust me its there.

To add to that, animals that show no signs of the problem as hatchlings can develop increased signs as the get older, and also (alhtough rarer) hatchlings that display syptoms can improve as they get older.

Persoanlly I took quite a time to reconcile what I thought was morally the right thing to do before producing jags, however having worked with adult snakes that have quite pronounced symptoms, they lead a perfectly good life (in my opinion), they certainly don't seem distressed or disadvantaged at all, they eat well, shed well, climb well, breed, are as calm and relaxed as anyother caret python. So in my own mind at least I am happy to produce Jags.

There are others that disagree, and I respect that opinion, although most of the people who are dead against Jags, have never actually worked with animals that display the issue.

Lankyrob · 08-06-10, 04:00 AM

Just one thing - as you used your credit card and received "defective goods" you are insured and can get legal advice from the credit card company. May be a route to a solution should you not get any joy direct from the breeder.