vivarium with frogs and lizards

[Lrptls]

i want to turn my very large aquarium (about 4 feet long, 2 feet high and 1 foot wide) into a natural vivarium. i would love to fill it with tropical plants and things but it wont be complete without critters. i have my heart set on dart frogs and geckos, probably just small day gecko species. i was just wondering how many of them i could put in this size tank with out them geting stressed out or any thing because i definetly dont want them fighting or buggin each other. it would also be awesome to put 1 or 2 little chameleons in there if that was possible. or if theres any other creatures i could put in there please say so. thanks for any answers or comments.

[Senator Gracken]

as is likely most on this site will tell you never to mix species. im not going to say either way. if you choose to do this thing then at least ensure that they are all from the same area of the world, require identical requirements, etc. as to how many you can keep of each, i would try only two species and at most two of each.

this promises to be an interesting read

[Lrptls]

hm, sounds kind of crappy. would i be able to put more animals in there if say it was just frogs or just geckos?

[Senator Gracken]

i have no idea, i have never tried mixing any species, but in order to help reduce stress i wouldnt put too many of any kind in one area. i wouldnt mix dart species to avoid the possibility of hybrids. so maybe a trio of whites tree frogs and perhaps a gecko or two from the same area, not sure which geckos but someone should be able to tell you.

[galad]

A tank that massive would be awsome for just about any species of frog or gecko.
I dont have much info pm DoubleJ for frog info.
With plenty of hiding spots a trio of day geckos would probably love all that space.
How are you planning on setting up the vivarium?
plants?
rockwall?
small pool?
I am currently building a couple, one for myself and one for display at a local pet shop. So we could prob help eachother out with some ideas for set ups.

A tank four feet long could also be divided into two if you wanted to house more then one species.
Pygmy chameleons are not the hardiest of reptiles are require quite abit of care and knowledge. Even people that have kept chameleons for a long time have had problemes with them.
Carl C would be the person to talk to if you are seriously interested.

ws

[Lrptls]

this is a project i have to wait on. right now theres a yellow anaconda living in the tank until i get him a bigger cage, then i will able to start the vivarium so it may not be for another month or two. which is good in that i will be able to get all the info i need and have all my ideas ready. i would like to cover the back of the tank with cork bark and fill it with a good amount of dirt so i can have live plants growin on the bottom and on the back wall. a small pool would be neat but i already have one of those fake water falls i will probably go ahead and use unless i change my mind later. will probably also have moss and branches and rocks and any thing else i can put in there thats natural and will make it look nice.

i would still love to put mixed creatures in there (probably dart frogs and geckos) even if it was just a few or couple of each. though i would have to find out which came from the same place and all that. i do really like day geckos and i know there are like 30 or so species but can any one tell me if theres any frogs that can go safely with any particular kind of day gecko? thanks

[HeatherRose]

Mixing species is not a good idea.

They live together in the wild (assuming you're planning on even using animals from the same area/habitat with the same temps/humidity etc) but in the wild they are not trapped in such a small space (large cage or not).

Each individual species carries its own bacterias and intenstinal florae which may be detrimental to the other species in the tanks.

Dart frogs are soooo tiny and delicate, I couldn't imagine putting anything in with them.

If you're looking to get frogs, PM Double J about mixing species. I believe he shares the opinion of it being a bad idea as well. Either way he's quite knowledgeable on the subject.

Just not a good idea. A mixed vivarium would be cool, but just crappy for the animals in the end.

[Lrptls]

alright well that stinks. i guess i will pick either frogs or geckos. what i really want is to put something in there where the animals arn't all the same colors, i want them to atleast look different if there all going to be the same species, any suggestions?

[Double J]

Hi guys,

I personally am not a fan of mixed tanks as you all know And it seems that Lrptls has decided against mixing these speceis anyway, but I think I will chime in and say why I consider it to be a bad idea to mix darts and day geckos.

As for mixing Phelsuma species and Dendrobatids, I can't say that I would ever recommend mixing them. Though it may be easy to question why, as they are both tropical families.. why not right? Well, being a keeper of both dart frogs and day geckos, their niches, and needs make them fairly incompatible in my opinion in a vivarium. Though I could go on about New World syndrome etc etc, the reasons for not keeping darts with days can be attributed simply to incompatibilities in husbandry techniques and temperature needs.
Your tank sounds like it is in the neighborhood of 65-70 gallons. It sounds big, but it really is not big enough.
Darts... they require humidity above 80% at all times. They dwell in the understory and the forest floor, where light levels, and temperatures are rather low, and the humidity is quite high. I have very little ventilation in my dart tanks, most tanks have screen tops wth 90-98% of the screening covered with saran wrap (it actually is invisible ), plexi, or glass to restrict airflow and keep humidity high. Though Phelsuma require humidity, as many are rainforest species, they seem to fare much better with plenty of ventilation, and humidity levels averaging in the 70's, with dips to the 60's and peaks in the 90's. Mosy day geckos live far higher up in the trees where they would experience more air exchange, and thus, lower humidity levels, higher temperatures, and lots of light. The screen tops on their tanks are entirely uncovered, and their tanks are well ventilated. In terms of temperature, mid 70's are best for dart frogs. I never under any circumstances let my dart tanks get above 80 degrees. Darts are incredibly sensitive to death by overheating, and it can happen in some species in the mid 80's. To properly thrive, most Phelsuma require temperatures that are beyond what dart frogs can take. I keep the ambient air temp in my day gecko tanks in thehigh 70's to low 80's, with basking spots in the high 80's. This is rather hot for darts to day the least. Most dart frogs are rather small as well, the among largest include tinctorius/azureus, and some of the larger Phyllobates. Even then, there are few species that exceed two inches in total length. Day geckos, are incredibly active hunters, and have been known to tackle food items that would seem far too large to us. I knew a guy who kept Phelsuma laticauda (gold dust day geckos) and Mantella viridis (green mantellas) together for around two years (much to my chagrin). One day, he happened to witness his gold dust day gecko lunge at, and devour one of his mantellas, a prey item which would seem far too big for a gecko like that to tackle. Unlikely, but still, it does happen.
All in all, the only Phelsuma species I would even slightly consider keeping with darts would be Phelsuma klemmeri as they are small, like it a little cooler, and more humid than other days. But they are so incredibly RARE, and very EXPENSIVE, that I would not take the chance with them anyway. So, I suppose I wouldn't recommend mixing them either.

So, there is my answer. Mixing is way more hassle than it is worth, and though a 70 gallon tank may seem large, it is miniscule in comparison with grand spectacle that is a rainforest.

Lrptls, good luck, and I am glad you have made the right decision.

[Lrptls]

thank you very much for that info! that was a good read and i'm glad i learnd all that. like i said it wont be a while till i start creating this, and i want to have it all planted and done before any creatures go in it so i will have a looong time to decide what i want living in it. i might be posting back on here with those questions later. thanks again every one.

[galad]

Double J are there any species of dart frogs that can live together?

ws