In response to the Chameleon Dreaming..

katev17 · 03-29-05, 04:07 PM

Okay I just thought it was an interesting subject and I wanted to put a bit of my input into it

Some more developed mammals (ie: humans, cats, dogs) have the prefrontal cortex which is believed to play a role in cognitive actions (thinking or internal dialogue) and memory... The frontal lobe, including the prefrontal cortex, I think aids in the creation or "playing", if you will, of the dreams you have.

In reptiles, however, the prefrontal cortex is not nearly as developed or complex, hence why it would be more likely to see a cat or dog "dreaming" or going through REM sleep, than it would for chameleons. I'd say that if the chameleon were undergoing REM sleep, it would be because of the different wavelengths occuring in his or her brain... REM sleep does not guarantee that dreaming is occurring...

Anyway, I'm learning more about dreams next week, I can keep you posted. Just thought I'd share my view =)

Kate

galad · 03-29-05, 04:25 PM

lol awsome. Now your the type of person I was hoping to reaspond to the last thread.

(*comment removed* ~ DragnDrop)

So you say the prefrontal cortex is still present in reptiles. So then could they not still be dreaming in a more primitive fashion.

Maybe they only hear sounds in their dreams. We really arent going to now untill you learn more about dreams then lol.

Maybe you could explain how different wave lengths cause the eyes to move around as they were. The brain is so amazing, and so complex.

I cannot wait to see what the future brings in terms of dream research, and the brain. Do you think that maybe one day it will be possible to record someones dreams?
Because Ive had some messed up dreams that would make a really good movie lol.

Please keep us posted

peace

katev17 · 03-29-05, 04:48 PM

Ok try this... set your alarm for about an hour and a half before you actually have to wake up, and eat a chunk of cheese. Then fall back asleep, and when you wake up, you'll remember a pretty vivid dream! It works, I've tried it...

Anyway, I don't know much about the reptilian brain, so I don't know much about their prefrontal cortex, or if they even have one. All I'm aware of is that it is more developed/complex in certain mammals!

I'll try and get back to you on the wavelengths, because there's a bunch of different kinds, all of which perform different functions.. I just forget which ones do what! I'll read up a bit and reply again

I'd love to think that chameleons dream, I think that would be amazing... I just don't think it's very likely... they really don't have much capacity for memory, which is a humongous factor in dreaming.

There must be some articles or something on this somewhere!! Hmm!! ... I should keep this in mind for my thesis =P Haha

Kate

labomb · 03-30-05, 06:20 AM

not much memory in chams? that is interesting, wouldn't reckognizing certain people be a memory thing? I know for a fact that my veiled reckognizes people or at least knows the difference between familiar and unfamiliar faces.

DragnDrop · 03-30-05, 09:13 AM

Last time I'm asking...

KEEP ON TOPIC!!
The topic is chams and dreaming, NOT nutrition and the good/bad/indifferent methods and attitudes of keepers about how much they do and don't supplement their chams and feeders and the neighbours kids for that matter.

Let's not get another thread closed. The next person who mentions nutrients or supplements in this thread without tying them directly in with dreams gets a warning.

Disagreements are normal, can even be productive. Digs and flames are useless. Remain on topic and civil, if flames break out, I'm digging out the fire hoses to break up the mobs.

katev17 · 03-30-05, 09:20 AM

Hey labomb, yea chameleons will have memory for sure... what I mean is that their capacity for memory and our capacity for memory are two completely different things... Whereas we'd be able to remember little things that occur through our days, chameleons would remember either more basic things (ie: the person feeding me is good), as opposed to how many people walked by the cage today, what kind of clothes their owner was wearing, y'know... that sort of stuff. It would also not be able to remember things from as far back as we can!

So yea, I'm not saying they don't have any memory! It just pales in comparison to that of ours, or even dogs and cats. =)

And I'm guessing a post got deleted or something, cuz I didn't see the thread go offtopic anywhere. Huh.

I'm going to my dream analysis lab today, so I'll post if I learn anythign really super cool =P
Have a good day
Kate

katev17 · 03-30-05, 01:14 PM

OKAY... I think I've got a good answer now.

I spoke to my psychology professor, and he's said that wavelengths that exist in mammals are either not the same or non-existant in animals such as reptiles, fish, insects, etc. Also, reptiles have a certain type of spinal chord (I'm sorry, I've forgotten the name of it) that we also retain as well. This sends impulses through your brain to ensure that you are still performing normal living actions while you sleep.

In hand with this 'performing while you sleep' action, comes the fact that eyes need oxygen. So what MAY appear to be REM sleep in your chameleon, may very extremely possibly be simply that the chameleon is scraping the insides of its eyelids to release oxygen for its eyes to 'breathe' persay.

Okay, so I think that's all I'll be able to help with... interesting subject, I liked it =)

Kate

galad · 03-30-05, 03:07 PM

Wow that's really cool. Im going to try that cheese thing tonight, lol. I just hope I dont get a horrible nightmare I wont be able to get out of my head. lol.

You were saying chameleons cannot remember the clothes you wore or how many people they saw that day. I can understand that.
But do you really think dogs and cats have that ability to know what clothes you had on, or how many people they saw that
day?
It seems kind of far fetched to me, I realy dont think there are many animals out there that are able to count or see colours.
Would this also mean that a human with a bad memorie would not be able to dream?
It doesn't seem right to me.

I would think that dreams came more from emotions then anything. Is it not usually the frame of mind you are in before you sleep that determines how your dreams are going to turn out.
For example if you are watching a scary movie, you go to bed scared and usually end up having bad dreams.

Not that im denying the fact that chameleons might not be able to dream. I would just like to think that in some way it is posssible.

Dragondrop I would really appreciate it if you would let me know what you deleted from my post and why.

It would be greatly appreciated.

peace

kinyonga · 03-30-05, 04:43 PM

Here are a couple more sights that refer to REM in reptiles...so its beginning to look like quite a few reptiles do have REM.
http://www.sl4.org/archive/0309/7137.html
"REM sleep appears to have arisen quite early in evolution - reptiles, birds and mammals all do it."

http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~jsiegel/rem_evolution.htm
"Tauber et al., 44 reported evidence for REM sleep in the chameleon lizard. They reasoned that this animal, having very mobile active eyes in waking would be more likely to show eye movement periods during sleep. They, like most subsequent
researchers working with reptiles, found relatively little modulation of forebrain EEG across the sleep-wake cycle, compared to the dramatic modulation in mammals. Some spiking occurred in forebrain leads during sleep, but no change in EEG occurred during periods of rapid eye movement. In "REM" sleep, one eye could be open while the other remained shut. No change in muscle tone occurred during sleep. No arousal threshold testing is described in this brief report."

"This hypothesis would predict a REM sleep state or at the least a state with many aspects of REM sleep in living reptiles. Studies at the neuronal level are necessary to test this hypothesis."

Chris_Anderson · 03-30-05, 05:16 PM

Wade,

You're confusing cognition with memory. To know how many people they saw, they'd need the cognative ability to count and formulate associations between memory and the act of counting. The same is true with remembering clothes you wore. I think primitive memory is more along the lines of basic associations--for instance i have a jacksonii that will start to get ready to shoot his tongue out if a person goes near his cage.

You did however comment that you don't think many animals out there can see color. This is actually incorrect, many can, including chameleons. I wouldn't say they have the cognative ability remember something like what color someone was wearing that day however.

Chris

meow_mix450 · 03-30-05, 06:13 PM

Same goes with my panther. When I or anyone opens up the cage it would get ready to shoot his tongue out. Kinda funny lol

Meow

galad · 03-30-05, 10:48 PM

Kinyonga,
Wow thats some wicked info. It's good to know that its a normal behavior, and isnt something to do with his health.
Are you studying science in university or anything?
I wasn't expecting so much detail lol.

Chris,
You somehow misjudged what I was saying,

I said: "You were saying chameleons cannot remember the clothes you wore or how many people they saw that day. I can understand that.
But do you really think dogs and cats have that ability to know what clothes you had on, or how many people they saw that
day?
It seems kind of far fetched to me"

So to put it anouther way I don't think chameleons, dogs or cats have the ability to know what clothes you had on, or how many people they saw that day. It seems kind of far feched to me.

And yes I did comment that many animals out there cannot see colour. What I meant to say was to see all colours. I know dogs only see in certain shades of certain colours. What colours specifically I don't know off the top of my head. Sorry to mislead you.
So after that I would think of all the millions of species in the world there are many who can oly see certain colours. And many that can see all colours.

But ya with the tongue shooting my cham gets ready any time I set up his dripper to zapp falling drops of water. lol

I love the cross eyed look they get when they focus both eyes to the front. Makes me laugh everytime.

peace

Chris_Anderson · 03-31-05, 08:36 AM

Wade,

I knew you were saying you didn't think it was possible. I was commenting that your examples are likely tied to congnative ability more than memory which is what the discussion was about.

Regarding colors, humans are trichromats, that is we only see color based on 3 different cone cells set to optimum preception of 3 different light wave lengths. We then perceive intermedient monochrom light wavelengths as combinations of those 3 colors. True, other animals see in fewer but there are many animals with more advanced color preception than us, some possess four or even five photoreceptor types. The more photoreceptor types (cone cells set to different wavelengths), the potentially higher the ability to extend the wavelength discrimination range (can see more wavelengths) and improve hue discrimination may result. I, however, don't think their ability to preceive color has too much to do with their ability to cognatively realize a person's clothes color and then store it to memory.

Chris

dank7oo · 03-31-05, 11:11 AM

Chris ... you are a walking encyclopedia ... awsome info

Jason

galad · 03-31-05, 01:11 PM

Ya know doubt hey Dank lol

I know some of this stuff in the back of my head from watching the discovery channel. But I am not very good with my memory.
This is a great refresher course,.
I do remeber the thing with the cones vagluely. Isnt there something else that is infront of the cones as well?

I remeber something about cats having alot more cones then we do, giving them a better ability to see at night, because they draw in more of the surrounding light.
Is this correct?

peace