Myth or not?

JimmyDavid · 01-19-05, 04:57 PM

I've heard many people say that a Boa and a burm (for example) should not be housed together. They say that they could end up infecting each other with their natural occuring bacteria because one comes from Asia and the other from S. America.
A question: Is this proven for sure? Is there any scientist standing for this statement? I mean, if it's true, then shouldn't a Bali retic not be housed together with a sumatran? Hell, shouldn't a west sumatran not be housed with one from the east? (2 totally different areas, despite being in the same country). Shouldn't an african person not share the same roof that an american? You can see that this list could go on to the point of being absurd...

Edwin · 01-19-05, 06:31 PM

Definitely not a myth. Interspecies disease transmission is real. For your other questions, look up globalization and health, there is a lot of research on the impact a globalization has on health trends.

JimmyDavid · 01-19-05, 07:10 PM

it's obvious that many diseases can be transmited to other species, monkeys gave us AIDS (hehe, not in THAT way). But i was talking about NORMAL body flora and bacterias that are supposed to exist in an animal (not a disease) but should cause death when passed to another animal that is not used to have those. That's what i want to know if it's true or myth.
By the way, how come wild chimps have not gone extinct yet? Aids exists among them and they don't use protection (hehe) and don't have the brain capacity to understand they shouldn't have sex with an infected partner. So far, those 2 facts have been the only thing preventing it to spread at global scale for us. since there's no medicine for it.

peterm15 · 01-19-05, 08:19 PM

my guess is that an apes life span in the wild would be an aspect of that.. aids takes a while to "spread" throught the body and humans have quite a long lifespan.. maybe thats why...

as for houseing them together... isnt it not good to even house the same species together unless breeding..

Adrian · 01-19-05, 08:28 PM

Apparently the ape-version isn't as severe, they evolved with it, whereas its an evelutionary new thing to us, and that was potentially 'assisted' by us humans
<a hres="http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/dissent/documents/AIDS/"> inadvertantly</a>

hit on "inadvertantly for a link... i forgot to color it...

http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmart...ocuments/AIDS/

Double J · 01-19-05, 08:38 PM

There certainly are real accounts of this, especially in humans. A classic example of this is when the europeans came to the americas and wiped many of them out with alien disease. Here is a link on the subject and its relevence to amphibians:

http://www.livingunderworld.org/amph...icle0007.shtml

A more common example of this occurs when one goes to Mexico and gets sick from drinking the water.

But here is my nest question.... why on earth would you house these snakes together in the first place?
If you can give me one reason as to how the snakes themselves could benefit from such a mix, then touche.

Gary D. · 01-19-05, 08:42 PM

Lets put aside the standard "you should never keep two snakes together regardless" opinion that you're bound to be inundated with, as really your question is more of intellectual exercise than a "why can't I..." question.

This could have been speculation or a theory established after failed communal caging attempt, and taken as fact over time. Or it could indeed be factual, or at least pertaining to wild caught animals. Initial deaths could have been as a result of foreigh pathogens and not gut flora at all. As the examples from human history demonstrate, illness did not come simply from being in proximity of an individual from another race. But a foreign disease which arrived simultaneously. Likewise in captive bred animals raised in relative proximity or similarly healthy and sterile conditions, this arguement my be quite invalid.

Yet I do know for certain the Calgary Zoo kept a large burm, a large retic and a large boa together successfully for years in a large habitat which had a heated pond which took no less than 60% of the floor area. Infact the enclosure was used for Crocodillians at least one or more times in the history of the building (no longer exists). So evidently the gut flora is not 100% fatal in all cases involving long term captive animals of different species. The cold hard reality here is that it is entirely speculative, and without extensive labratory testing it will never be confirmed nor dismissed.

I like your posts Jimmy, they usually bring out some good intellectual debate. And if nothing else cause one to think.

GD

JimmyDavid · 01-20-05, 03:06 PM

Thanks Gary. I post whenever i think the issue is relevant or smart enough to make others even bother to answer it.

Let me say that NO, i don't house my snakes together. I can see several problems coming from that, (i only have 2 retics sharing the same enclosure, but it's a huge space for only one snake).

Even if proven that 2 different snakes COULD, by chance, "contaminate" each other the way i described, how often would that be prone to happen? Can anyone tell for sure?
90% of all times...
70% of all times...
30% of all times...
10% of all times...
maybe as often as the chance of a person getting an airborn disease just by talking to a friend (wich is insignificant but can happen)?
This last case, though within the realms of possibility, happens so little that one doesn't bother to think of it (and would be insane to run from everybody, right?).

concept3 · 01-20-05, 06:28 PM

Double J he is talking about mixing two healthy specimens not one with a disease with another.

Double J · 01-21-05, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by concept3
Double J he is talking about mixing two healthy specimens not one with a disease with another.

That's EXACTLY my point!!! The Europeans WERE healthy! They HAD immunities to a number of diseases that they carried on them, yet showed no symptoms because their bodies could handle them. They were healthy because they had built up IMMUNITIES!... but they still carried the microbes even though they would have shown no symptoms in many cases. The native North and South Americans did not have immunitites... and we all know what happened to most of them. This is exactly what can happen in a worst case scenario. So, why take the chance with your animals? Why mix in the first place?

Nobody has *ever* answered the following question for me.

How will the animals benefit from a mix????????

If anybody can give a *legitimate* answer to the second question...... then pat yourself on the back. Still, I won't hold my breath.

Jeff Hathaway · 01-21-05, 05:06 PM

Didn't we go through most of this recently???

Jimmy, part of the problem is the definition of 'normal'. Normal gut flora is unlikely, in my opinion, to cause the death of another species. And yes, people do get sick when they visit other countries because of exposure to different bacteria, etc. in drinking water, but rarely do they get seriously ill or die from this unless it is due to one or more pathogens (which I wouldn't consider normal) such as those that cause cholera, typhoid fever, etc. Typically, once one's body adjusts to the new surroundings, everything is fine.

Sometimes, one species can be a carrier (asymptomatic) of a pathogen, and appear healthy, but then pass it along to another species which becomes seriously, even terminally, ill. This is known to happen in reptiles with inclusion body disease virus (IBDV) and with amoeboid parasites. However, these things are not 'normal' for the carrier. They have to first have been exposed to them somewhere. For captive bred specimens that have been properly quarantined and not exposed to anything, there is very little risk here.

Sometimes, run-of-the-mill infections that affect some animals only mildly (such as most strains of cold and flu viruses in humans) will have a serious effect on others of the same species, or similar species, because the new animals have no immunity built up. This is the example of the Europeans devastating the native American population that is frequently cited. Again, these infections are not 'normal' gut flora, though they may be relatively common infections and this can present some risk when introducing any new animals into an enclosure such as for breeding, or housing multiple specimens. The level of risk would be quite variable depending upon many factors such as the origin of the specimens (CB vs. WC, where they have been housed previously such as a wholesaler, etc.). One could only make an educated guess in each case what the risk would be, and then you would have to weigh that risk against the potential benefits of what you are planning to do.

And of course, this is biology we're talking about. It is hard to stick everything into neat little categories. The lines between the scenarios I have described are quite blurry.

So the moral of the story- educate yourself thoroughly so that you can evaluate things critically for yourself.

Generally speaking, if you're talking about two captive bred specimens with no history of exposure to any serious pathogens or parasites, similar environmental requirements, and an enclosure that is capable of providing for the needs of both species, I think the risk is exceedingly low. However, there are still other factors to consider when deciding whether to house things together such as physical injury to each other, competition for food, basking areas, etc., stress, difficulty of handling if specimens pose any human hazards, etc.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

JimmyDavid · 01-22-05, 01:49 PM

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by Double J

How will the animals benefit from a mix????????

[/B]

Sometimes you can't go around it. Either because of lack of cage space (sometimes for a short period due to cleaning, re-building or repair, etc) or because you are trying to breed the snakes or whatever. I just think that instead of saying "i will never mix snakes because i don't see a reason to" one should accept that the time for that can eventually come one day and get as much info on what's involved as possible. Wich is exactly what i'm trying to do by posting these questions.

marisa · 01-22-05, 02:12 PM

I like the questions being brought up. I'll address the only part which I see a solution too for me personally at my house....

"one should accept that the time for that can eventually come one day and get as much info on what's involved as possible"

It won't eventually come for everyone one day. I can honestly say I will never ever run out of cage space, ever....period... as it's not hard to avoid this problem. Simply do not buy animals I cannot house alone.

As for cleaning and repair? Still a non-issue at my house. I have seperate tubs in a closet for cleaning each snake, and if a cage was so badly damaged a snake could no longer live in it, I could house it in a cleaning tub. Or buy another. Temp rubbermaids are 10 bucks, so buying another is a better option in my mind then housing it with another snake in my collection.

I don't think housing together is evil. I just don't see any reason to do it aside from "saving cage space" which to me personally, is no reason at all.

Just my opinion which may or may not have a place in this discussion.

Marisa

JimmyDavid · 01-22-05, 02:20 PM

Wow, Marisa. You are the first person i know, that truly holds the future in his hands.
Damn, if all those people in Phuket were a bit more like you they all still had their houses. Shame on them.

marisa · 01-22-05, 02:29 PM

What a thing to say.

You are really a bitter unhappy person to say that what I said had ANYTHING to do with that.

If you really think running out of cage space is unavoidable then I don't know what to tell you. But I am certaintly not having a discussion with someone who is so childish in their replies to someone just sharing THEIR methods and THEIR opinion. Sorry, didn't realize you were the only one allowed to have those.

Get a grip. This forum is all about difference methods and opinions. My method does not allow running out of cage space. Period. If you couldn't handle that, a simple, thanks for your input would have been just fine.

Marisa