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10-02-03, 07:07 AM
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#1
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Member
Join Date: Oct-2003
Location: Germany
Age: 41
Posts: 42
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Echis and antivenom
Hello Guys,
I red in an older article that there were a lot of problems using Echis carinatus antivenom, when ist was still regarded as one species. The venom varied geographically so that antivenom produced with the venom of Echis carinatus form one area did not help to trade bites of Echis carinatus from elsewhere.
Now I am interestet if there are a polyvalent or even new monovalent antivenoms or for the different new Echis species wich could be administered.
The answer from a friend who trades with antvenoms was that there are still different producers of Echis antivenom but only two different antivenoms. One for the species from Africa and another for the Asian species.
Do you know any more? Or if you can say that this ist right, do you have any informations or experiences with using these antivenoms? Are they effective?
Because I am going to keep Echis suchoreki, leucogaster, ocellatus, pyramidum and carinatus in the future.
cheers
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10-02-03, 08:38 AM
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#2
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Member
Join Date: Jan-2003
Posts: 267
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Maik,
There are still some other producer of AV for Echis from different origin, according to the species you're going to keep:
Echis leucogaster:
FAV-AFRIQUE & FAVIREPT (Aventis Pasteur, France);
Echis ocellatus:
FAV-AFRIQUE (Aventis Pasteur, France), SAIMR Echis Antivenom (SAMIR South Africa);
Echis pyramidum:
ANTIREPT PASTEUR (Aventis Pasteur, France);
Echis carinatus:
ANTIREPT PASTEUR, IPSER AFRIQUE PASTEUR (Aventis Pasteur, France);
Lyophilised Anti-snake-venom Serum, Snake Antivenin I.P. (Haffkine, India);
Monovalent Saw-scaled Viper Antivenom Serum, Polyvalent Snake Antivenom Serum (Central Research Institute India);
Serum Antivenimeux Bitis Echis Naja Pasteur (Pasteur Merieux France);
There seems no AV specific for Echis suchoreki. The above AVs are suggested to treat those species mentioned. As I'm not keeping these species, someone in this forum should have some more update info......Hope this may help you.
ETET
__________________
Ha! Ha!
:w
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10-02-03, 08:51 AM
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#3
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Member
Join Date: Oct-2003
Location: Germany
Age: 41
Posts: 42
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Thank you for the infos! That ist exactly what I was looking for!
regards
Maik
__________________
"In the end, we will conserve only what we love, we will love only what we understand, we will understand only what we are tought." (Dioum)
I am keeping various venomous and nonvenomous snakes
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10-02-03, 08:59 AM
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#4
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Member
Join Date: Jan-2003
Posts: 267
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Hi again Maik, as far as update info of AV in Germany (as of August, 2003). There are two places I know in Germany which carry AV for Echis carinatus:
SDB Serum-Depot-Berlin e.V., Dieter PreiBler (12159 Berlin, Albestr. 2)- Lyophilised Anti-snake-venom Serum; &
Giftnotruf Muenchen, Klinikum Rechts der Isar (81675 Muechen Ismaningerstr. 22)- Snake Antivenin I.P.
You may check this places out for their supply.
ETET
__________________
Ha! Ha!
:w
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10-02-03, 09:07 AM
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#5
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Member
Join Date: Oct-2003
Location: Germany
Age: 41
Posts: 42
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Thank you. I allready knew about them. And by the way Dieter Preißler was the friend I mentioned who I allready asked about Echis AV.  But maybee I can convince him to buy and to store some of the AVs you toold me about... 
But one question: Were did you get such infomations from so fast?
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10-02-03, 09:32 AM
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#6
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Member
Join Date: Jan-2003
Posts: 267
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I have my info from hot keepers of different places and this forum. There are many knowledgable people here. Try to keep everyone update...
ETET
__________________
Ha! Ha!
:w
Last edited by ETET; 10-02-03 at 09:35 AM..
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10-02-03, 09:54 AM
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#7
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Member
Join Date: Feb-2002
Location: Ontario
Age: 45
Posts: 1,659
Country: 
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Maik,
every once in a while the AZA publishes an antivenin index.
this tells which AV works on which species and which contries and companies make the particular AV you need.
it also tells which other AV will be somewhat effective in treating species it wasnt necessarily made for.
It lists which zoos in the AZA carry each AV as well.
great publication, but only available to Zoos!!!
__________________
Matt Rudisi
~Reptiles Canada~
www.reptilescanada.ca
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10-03-03, 12:53 AM
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#8
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Member
Join Date: Aug-2003
Location: Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 171
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You can get the Antivenom Index off of the Midwest site ( www.tongs.com). There is a really funny story about EchiTab (the Nigerian Echis antivenom). It was discovered that counterfit vials were being sold on the black market. Some were obtained for comparison. The labels listed batches that didn't exist and had some errors. Anyway, turned out the counterfit was even better! What ultimately transpired was that the best batches were being stolen by employees, relabled and sold cheaper!!!! ;-p
Cheers
B
__________________
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Deputy Director
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
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10-03-03, 06:49 AM
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#9
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Squamata Concepts
Join Date: Jan-2003
Location: USA
Age: 49
Posts: 2,055
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You have to be careful because you may think you are getting one species of Echis and really be getting another species of Echis....... Mixups do happen with Echis from time to time......
__________________
"A sure fire way for a government to lose control of something is for them to prohibit it."
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10-03-03, 07:21 AM
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#10
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Member
Join Date: Aug-2003
Location: Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 171
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Thats very very true. Antivenoms from one region don't do a thing against other venoms. SO its excruciatingly essential you know the exact geographical locality of the snakes or else you're screwed in a bite.
Cheers
B
__________________
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Deputy Director
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
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10-03-03, 04:39 PM
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#11
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Member
Join Date: Oct-2003
Location: Germany
Age: 41
Posts: 42
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Thank you. Fortunately I am staying in good contakt with a reptile-zoo but if I can get the list online...
Good that you reminded me that I should now the specific locality where the snakes come from so that the AV can work effectively in the case of emergency. I hope I can get the information from the breeders because I dislike wild caughts and avoid buying them if possible...
regards
Maik
__________________
"In the end, we will conserve only what we love, we will love only what we understand, we will understand only what we are tought." (Dioum)
I am keeping various venomous and nonvenomous snakes
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10-05-03, 09:28 PM
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#12
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Member
Join Date: Aug-2002
Location: South Florida (near hell)
Posts: 653
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Dr. Fry, Call me stupid, But I can't seem to locat the AZA AV Index on that site. Can you tell me where to find it? Thanks, Ray Hunter
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10-05-03, 09:44 PM
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#13
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Member
Join Date: Aug-2003
Location: Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 171
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Hi Ray
Hmmm.... odd, I know they were selling them not too long ago. I'll send them an email to check into it and get back with what I find out.
Cheers
B
__________________
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Deputy Director
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
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03-17-04, 08:31 PM
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#14
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Member
Join Date: Oct-2003
Location: Germany
Age: 41
Posts: 42
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Hello
Just a further question on Echis ocellatus...
The literature I have is from 1996 or older. But I have got some abstracts of papers reporting on a newer AV. It shal be an ovine Fab-AV but I cant find any further details yet.
Can somebody tell me how good it works? Or give me some quotations? So that I can search the papers on my own?
It is probably the FAV-Afrique I am referring to!?
About the SAIMR I have allready different studies from Nigeria...
If my English is uncomprehensible let me know and I'll try to explain what I want to know...
regards
Maik
__________________
"In the end, we will conserve only what we love, we will love only what we understand, we will understand only what we are tought." (Dioum)
I am keeping various venomous and nonvenomous snakes
Last edited by Maik Dobiey; 03-17-04 at 08:35 PM..
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03-19-04, 12:58 PM
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#15
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Member
Join Date: Oct-2003
Location: Germany
Age: 41
Posts: 42
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Is there nobody keeping this species in the USA? Can't you help me?
__________________
"In the end, we will conserve only what we love, we will love only what we understand, we will understand only what we are tought." (Dioum)
I am keeping various venomous and nonvenomous snakes
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