sand substrate

[akane]

I thought I'd put this here rather than enclosures since it seems particular to these species. I have a rosy and would like anther rosy and a sand boa. Is sand suitable for these species? Any particulars? I saw the various reptile options, there's crushed coral aquarium sand that is calcium carbonate based for cheaper, and I can get fine grain quartz sand for dollars per 50lbs. I use the last one in my fish tanks all the time because it is smoother than some other options making it safer for bottom dwellers and burrowing loaches.

[bigsnakegirl785]

No, sand is not suitable for any reptile commonly kept in captivity. There are a few exceptions to this rule, but they are not commonly kept by any means. There is a sand boa species (the Arabian sand boa) that does live in loose rolling sand, but most species are not built for loose sand, but more of a sandy dirt habitat.

Best substrate to use would be aspen. It holds burrows fairly well without the health risks of sand.

Calcium sand is especially bad for reptiles, as the chemicals used in it can cause them to overdose and become ill or die when ingested and is overly dusty, posing a respiratory risk as well.

[sirtalis]

@bigsnakegirl, really? Natural play sand is an awesome substrate for many snakes and lizards, provided the humidity and temperatures are kept up to par. Now petstore sand is a whole different story haha

[SnoopySnake]

Originally Posted by sirtalis

@bigsnakegirl, really? Natural play sand is an awesome substrate for many snakes and lizards, provided the humidity and temperatures are kept up to par. Now petstore sand is a whole different story haha

Play sand alone is not generally a good substrate. Mixed with soil and other substrates its good, but no way would it be acceptable to use alone (for a majority of reptiles-few exceptions) It's still sand.

[dannybgoode]

Pure sand is not a good substrates but not due to the risk of impaction as commonly stated but simply that very few reptiles live on pure sand in the wild so does not particularly mimic any natural environment.

Further it does not hold moisture in and of itself so to keep the humidity up the sand is moistened but this moisture isn't retained in the sand line it is with say orchid bark or ecoearth but rather between the sand granules. If it is overly dampened it becomes wet which is not particularly good for most reptiles.

Finally when dry it does not retain a tunnel or burrow so is not great for most lizards etc that line to burrow and hide.

Many reptiles do however live in environments where sand forms a good proportion of the soil/substrates so if mixed as SS suggests, with other matter then it can make an excellent base to a naturalistic substrate.

And yes, calci-sand is bad...

[bigsnakegirl785]

Actually, impaction is a huge worry, mostly for lizards....many lizards lick things to inspect them, and a lizard licking up sand all day can have it build up over months or even years and die from it. There are a lot of pictures out there with lizards' stomachs full of sand at the time of death. This isn't fake.

Sand also is really bad for causing infections, because it holds in the moisture it's a breeding ground for bacteria, so when a sand grain gets stuck in soft tissue it can irritate the tissue and cause infections. Which can often be deadly.

[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

Actually, impaction is a huge worry, mostly for lizards....many lizards lick things to inspect them, and a lizard licking up sand all day can have it build up over months or even years and die from it. There are a lot of pictures out there with lizards' stomachs full of sand at the time of death. This isn't fake.

Sand also is really bad for causing infections, because it holds in the moisture it's a breeding ground for bacteria, so when a sand grain gets stuck in soft tissue it can irritate the tissue and cause infections. Which can often be deadly.

No really it isn't.

Loose substrates in and of themselves do not cause impaction-fact. Indeed many wild and captive lizards have been observed purposefully ingesting soil and sand for mineral intake.

Poor husbandry causes impaction when coupled with loose substrates-incorrect temperatures and humidity etc-as this causes issues with digestion. The animals you see have been kept incorrectly in other ways other than the substrate.

I have recently spoken with very experienced keepers on this matter and not one has ever seen impaction caused by the ingestion of substrate alone.

I am not disputing that sand on its own is a good substrate for other reasons but impaction-assuming correct husbandry-is not one of them.

[sirtalis]

Ok, I may be wrong but I've used plain sand for 5 years with my leopard geckos without fail. If you keep the humidity higher than suggested impaction will not be am issue, the pictures are usually calcium sand impactions just for future reference, yes adding soil is recomended but play sand coupled with a 130 f basking spot and 60% humidity works great for me at least, I pour about 1 liter of water into their enclosure once a week, once it dries out the top layer is virtually a rock, ill post a thread about leopard geckos and sand once I can take some pictures, talk to any experienced reptile keeper and they will tell you that play sand is perfectly fine. If you follow 19 year old caresheets they will tell you otherwise though

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by sirtalis

Ok, I may be wrong but I've used plain sand for 5 years with my leopard geckos without fail. If you keep the humidity higher than suggested impaction will not be am issue, the pictures are usually calcium sand impactions just for future reference, yes adding soil is recomended but play sand coupled with a 130 f basking spot and 60% humidity works great for me at least, I pour about 1 liter of water into their enclosure once a week, once it dries out the top layer is virtually a rock, ill post a thread about leopard geckos and sand once I can take some pictures, talk to any experienced reptile keeper and they will tell you that play sand is perfectly fine. If you follow 19 year old caresheets they will tell you otherwise though

It can take longer than that for the sand to build up. You're in denial and putting a keepers' reptiles at risk if you think it isn't a problem.

Sand naturally sticks together when wet, sure the chances of impaction are increased with improper care, but that doesn't stop it completely.

Proper husbandry also doesn't stop life-threatening infections when sand gets stuck in their tissues.

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

No really it isn't.

Loose substrates in and of themselves do not cause impaction-fact. Indeed many wild and captive lizards have been observed purposefully ingesting soil and sand for mineral intake.

Poor husbandry causes impaction when coupled with loose substrates-incorrect temperatures and humidity etc-as this causes issues with digestion. The animals you see have been kept incorrectly in other ways other than the substrate.

I have recently spoken with very experienced keepers on this matter and not one has ever seen impaction caused by the ingestion of substrate alone.

I am not disputing that sand on its own is a good substrate for other reasons but impaction-assuming correct husbandry-is not one of them.

See above.

Why use an expensive, dangerous substrate like sand when:

1) it's easier to maintain that higher humidity on a different substrate

2) there's not only a danger of impaction but of infections from physical damages due to the sand

3) it's extremely unhygienic, especially since a lot of people trying "cleaning" the sand to reuse it

[sirtalis]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

It can take longer than that for the sand to build up. You're in denial and putting a keepers' reptiles at risk if you think it isn't a problem.

Sand naturally sticks together when wet, sure the chances of impaction are increased with improper care, but that doesn't stop it completely.

Proper husbandry also doesn't stop life-threatening infections when sand gets stuck in their tissues.



See above.

Why use an expensive, dangerous substrate like sand when:

1) it's easier to maintain that higher humidity on a different substrate

2) there's not only a danger of impaction but of infections from physical damages due to the sand

3) it's extremely unhygienic, especially since a lot of people trying "cleaning" the sand to reuse it

actually not at all, the reason being is that a good friend of mine has a 21 year old leopard gecko "spotty" that has lived on sand its entire life, it has a full tail and is almost 12 inches long, I'll have a chance to photograph it on Thursday, it's lived in a semi natural enclosure complete with high basking and plenty of mice in its diet, 1 fuzzy per week, please remind me to share it if I forget and I buy play sand for $3.45/50 lbs, one complete substrate change per month so I pay less than $1.50/month on substrate

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by sirtalis

actually not at all, the reason being is that a good friend of mine has a 21 year old leopard gecko "spotty" that has lived on sand its entire life, it has a full tail and is almost 12 inches long, I'll have a chance to photograph it on Thursday, it's lived in a semi natural enclosure complete with high basking and plenty of mice in its diet, 1 fuzzy per week, please remind me to share it if I forget and I buy play sand for $3.45/50 lbs, one complete substrate change per month so I pay less than $1.50/month on substrate

Why is a leopard gecko eating mice? I thought they were insectivorous...

If by seminatural you mean they're in a bioactive that may explain why. Bioactives usually use sand mixtures, and the bedding is a little more compact, so less likely to cause impaction.

[sirtalis]

20161005_152846.jpg

20161005_152839.jpg

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

Why is a leopard gecko eating mice? I thought they were insectivorous...

If by seminatural you mean they're in a bioactive that may explain why. Bioactives usually use sand mixtures, and the bedding is a little more compact, so less likely to cause impaction.

ok so I got the pictures, this gecko is 21 years old and has lived on sand its entire life. Now that it is a senior it is kept on black sand so help him catch his food easier, note that he has a full tail.

[sirtalis]

Originally Posted by poison123

Its still being spread around that sand is bad for alot of herps? I thought those days were gone. A healthy and well hydrated animal will pass sand with no problem. Though my substrate for a leo would be much deaper and able to hold burrows for moister. I also agree with offering higher basking temps with the option to use lower if the animal chooses.

I think poison's previous response to one of my other threads is a good explanation, @dannybgoode good points

[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by sirtalis

I think poison's previous response to one of my other threads is a good explanation, @dannybgoode good points

Indeed. I have recently seen photos of a geckos feces that is entirely sand proving they can pass it all other things being equal.

Of course there are questions as to why it felt the need to ingest so much sand but it passed it no issues.

I think it's important to note I don't think anyone is saying that impaction does not occur and/or that if it does happen it's not serious or indeed life threatening-it is.

But, impaction is the symptom and not the cause of wider issues.

[Minkness]

Well said Danny!