Nose Rubbing

[Minkness]

Well, I think I have a serious nose rubber.

What causes this behavior?

Is there a way to stop it?

Do snakes 'grow out of it'?

Other than a nose bump, what are the more serious issues this causes?

[Andy_G]

Breeding response, confinement/insufficient space, mites, new surroundings, incorrect temps (usually too hot)...basically stress cause nose rubbing behaviour. Extreme cases of nose rub can cause permanent disfigurement and infections in not only tissues of the mouth, nose and snout...but also the bones of the skull themselves which could kill an individual. I remember selling a 7 year old male hog island who was in perfect health. The following breeding season he was rubbing and he ultimately died in that other person's care and it happened rather quickly while this person went on a 2 week vacay.

Reduce all sources of stress that you can and please don't keep whatever snake is rubbing in anything with a screened surface until it ceases, Logan. If this is your new hog island then keep a close eye on those bumps too...could be the start of infection.

[Minkness]

Well...all I really have are screen lids =/

What are signs should I watch out for if it turns out to be an infection?
And yes, it's my new hog island. Are they known for rubbing?

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Minkness

Well...all I really have are screen lids =/

What are signs should I watch out for if it turns out to be an infection?
And yes, it's my new hog island. Are they known for rubbing?

Boas can be known for rubbing, yes. If the snake is in a cage that's Length+Width=the snake's length, try getting a bigger cage where the Length is equal to the snake's length.

Double check your temps, make sure the ambients are in the high 70's, low 80's, and the hot spot is 88F.

Buy a tub if you have to, but as Andy said, your boa is going to lacerate its face up if you keep it in a screen top tank. A tub shouldn't cost you more than ~$25 if you get the absolute biggest clear tub you can find. If you don't already have heat tape on hand, buy some, it's the best way to provide heat in a tub. You do have the snake's heat on a thermostat, right?

Do you run A/C in the snake's room? I've found that snakes absolutely hate A/C, so don't keep them very close to the A/C.

How are you feeding it? Boas do best with less food than you'd think, and overfeeding will cause them to rub just as much as underfeeding will.

The infections from nose rub would be the same as mouth rot, the mouth will swell up, turn discolored, and fluids will leak out of it. Abscesses can also form, which is what I guess that bump is.

You need to get the snake to a vet, this can be a life threatening condition.

[Minkness]

BSG, I only just got her today. She's super tiny, so I doubt getting the biggest tub possible will be a good idea. If I have to, I'll just put tape on the underside of the screen. That should smooth it out fine. As for AC, it doesn't blow much in the room and the fan I have to circulate airflow is facing away from her.

I haven't fed ger yet because as mentioned, I only JUST got her today. If rubbing is stress related that would make sense since she was being kept with 4 of her sisters in a standard hatchling rack. So there was definitely insufficient space in that. Not to mention the hour+ drive home (which I did run the AC in my car).

I will certainly keep an eye on her and if it continues I will take her to the vet. Temps all check out normal in her current enclosure, but the hatchling tub felt a bit too warm and a bit too humid imo but I don't have numbers for that do no telling. She was the most active of her sisters as well, so no telling. If it's too severe in the next week though, I may take her back as she did come with a 30 day health guarantee, and I would consider that a health thing.

I peeked in on her before bed and she finally quit cruising, so perhaps she just needs tine to settle in.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Minkness

BSG, I only just got her today. She's super tiny, so I doubt getting the biggest tub possible will be a good idea. If I have to, I'll just put tape on the underside of the screen. That should smooth it out fine. As for AC, it doesn't blow much in the room and the fan I have to circulate airflow is facing away from her.

I haven't fed ger yet because as mentioned, I only JUST got her today. If rubbing is stress related that would make sense since she was being kept with 4 of her sisters in a standard hatchling rack. So there was definitely insufficient space in that. Not to mention the hour+ drive home (which I did run the AC in my car).

I will certainly keep an eye on her and if it continues I will take her to the vet. Temps all check out normal in her current enclosure, but the hatchling tub felt a bit too warm and a bit too humid imo but I don't have numbers for that do no telling. She was the most active of her sisters as well, so no telling. If it's too severe in the next week though, I may take her back as she did come with a 30 day health guarantee, and I would consider that a health thing.

I peeked in on her before bed and she finally quit cruising, so perhaps she just needs tine to settle in.

Ah ok, then we probably won't know what's causing it. It's stress of some sort, but we won't know where from, and it may clear up in your care.

You can make the tub as big as you want, just clutter it up with hides and cover. I have my little 80 gram anery motley boa in a 66 qt tub and he's settled into it nicely. He's not even as long as the tub, but he's proven to be an active squirmy baby, so he really benefits from the space.

I would still be wary if the A/C is in the same room, I had my ghost boa in a room with A/C to give her her shot today, and it got her to hissing and striking even though the air wasn't hitting her directly. We turned it off and she calmed down quickly. I have an A/C unit on the other end of the trailer, but it's outside the snake room, and I just let the cold air travel into the room.

At this point, I'd just keep an eye on her and make sure the rubbing doesn't get worse. If there's an open sore or cuts, then you know she's still rubbing.

[Minkness]

No open sore or cuts from what I can see. Just a bump. And I'm not sure what you mean about AC in the room. It's got a vent and is connected to central heat/air, which the room has to have if I am to be able to regulate temps at all. Otherwise the heat would sky rocket.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Minkness

No open sore or cuts from what I can see. Just a bump. And I'm not sure what you mean about AC in the room. It's got a vent and is connected to central heat/air, which the room has to have if I am to be able to regulate temps at all. Otherwise the heat would sky rocket.

Ah. I was envisioning an A/C unit. Didn't realize you had central.

Originally Posted by Minkness

Ok, improved her enclosure a bit. More hiding places, that are also smaller than the log she had, and 2 climbing things. I also sealed the screen with tape but secured the edges with glue so no corners can come loose!

How long does it usually take to see improvement of the bump once they have stopped rubbing?

Not sure how bad her rub was compared to your boa's, but it took my retic 4 or 5 shed cycles before her nose rub went away. At one point, a portion of it fell off and scabbed over, but now you can't tell she ever rubbed her nose. She didn't initially break the skin.

Originally Posted by Andy_G

I respectfully disagree with getting the biggest tub possible and cluttering it and i'll explain why. Baby boas will do better in a smaller tub, and putting a new one such as that will encourage rubbing, not discourage it. I see no point in creating more to clean and therefore more time bothering the baby doing so. I always kept littermates together in small groups on moist paper towel in shoe box size bins until their first shed when I would seperate them for feeding and they'd get their own so I am not confident that is a significant stressor... A very active baby boa is usually a stressed one I have found, and a baby's very arboreal nature (although boas are semi-arboreal, babies are even more so) is in order to feel more secure while exposed. The fact that boas have a slower metabolism and are purely ambush predators by nature would indicate that they would prefer to preserve energy. I also think thag cooler air coming from an A/C would "slow down" the boa and make it more sluggish, not the other way around. Excessive heat as I mentioned would more likely be a stressor. You mentioned mites and they will trigger rubbing BIG TIME.

You know what you're doing as far as new acquisitions go Logan, just see if you can avoid using any screen for now and monitor the bumps for changes and do the usual leave alone and feed after a week, etc. Sometimes these small abcesses are benign and take care of themselves but monitor it.

I haven't found that to be true, but I also haven't ever run across a rubber before. I offer all my snakes more room than the bare minimum, and they seem to benefit from it. When I say a snake is active, I don't mean it's excessively active. I mean it's regularly coming out at the time appropriate for its species and cruising around, which is not indicative of stress. A snake that sits in one spot, never once moving, even during the time of day its species is normally active, is just as stressed or unhealthy as one that is excessively active.

For a rubber maybe my info is off, but I generally put all my babies in as large of clear tubs as I can find that have latches, and I've never had a problem. My anery motley did take some adjustment after being a blacked-out rack system, having been nippy but after a couple weeks he's calmed right down. He's got lots of cover, though.

I wouldn't say the A/C affects their metabolisms, just that cold air flowing over them doesn't really feel all that nice. Like putting our hands in lukewarm water after playing in the snow all day. When they cool off, they'll stop moving, but I've found initially it actually causes them to become frantic.

[Andy_G]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

I haven't found that to be true, but I also haven't ever run across a rubber before. I offer all my snakes more room than the bare minimum, and they seem to benefit from it. When I say a snake is active, I don't mean it's excessively active. I mean it's regularly coming out at the time appropriate for its species and cruising around, which is not indicative of stress. A snake that sits in one spot, never once moving, even during the time of day its species is normally active, is just as stressed or unhealthy as one that is excessively active.

For a rubber maybe my info is off, but I generally put all my babies in as large of clear tubs as I can find that have latches, and I've never had a problem. My anery motley did take some adjustment after being a blacked-out rack system, having been nippy but after a couple weeks he's calmed right down. He's got lots of cover, though.

I wouldn't say the A/C affects their metabolisms, just that cold air flowing over them doesn't really feel all that nice. Like putting our hands in lukewarm water after playing in the snow all day. When they cool off, they'll stop moving, but I've found initially it actually causes them to become frantic.

I see what you mean and appreciate where you're coming from, and I hope saying this doesn't bother you, but your sample size is not that large as far as these observations go, BSG. Normal activity is healthy of course, but that's not what is happening here. This boa is not rubbing due to lack of space and neonates do not normally do so, I say that with complete confidence. Saying that, the smaller the cage, the easier it is to heat...and a baby boa in a cage without escape from heat will most definitely rub and for beginner keepers (and sometimes even careless breeders!) it's a common mistake to run heat pads without control. Too much heat, insecurity, and mites are the most common causes of nose rub with neonate boas.

For an animal who is nose rubbing and already stressed...using a larger cage with more things to clean off and maintain will increase the amount of contact and bothering you have to do for simple upkeep. Bare minimums with simple setups in this case would be essential to reduce interaction as much as possible until the snake is settled in and the rubbing ceases.

Since it's central A/C and not a unit blowing a breeze it won't be an issue...but out of the few hundred boa babies I produced I have never seen one react too much to a cool breeze whatsoever...but there admittedly weren't many opportunities for me to observe this aside from perhaps going from the main floor to the basement when handling (82 ambient snake room, 70ish degree basement). We wouldn't want a cool breeze in the first place though, you're right there.

Logan, the bump could disappear rather quickly or it may take a while. Usually with younger, rapidly growing animals it will clear up faster but it's pretty variable. I'm not able to coach you as to how you should modify the screen top simply because I don't use them and haven't done it. Some other suggestions have been made that may work, though. My biggest thing is that you make totally sure the mites are 100% gone.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Andy_G

I see what you mean and appreciate where you're coming from, and I hope saying this doesn't bother you, but your sample size is not that large as far as these observations go, BSG. Normal activity is healthy of course, but that's not what is happening here. This boa is not rubbing due to lack of space and neonates do not normally do so, I say that with complete confidence. Saying that, the smaller the cage, the easier it is to heat...and a baby boa in a cage without escape from heat will most definitely rub and for beginner keepers (and sometimes even careless breeders!) it's a common mistake to run heat pads without control. Too much heat, insecurity, and mites are the most common causes of nose rub with neonate boas.

For an animal who is nose rubbing and already stressed...using a larger cage with more things to clean off and maintain will increase the amount of contact and bothering you have to do for simple upkeep. Bare minimums with simple setups in this case would be essential to reduce interaction as much as possible until the snake is settled in and the rubbing ceases.

Since it's central A/C and not a unit blowing a breeze it won't be an issue...but out of the few hundred boa babies I produced I have never seen one react too much to a cool breeze whatsoever...but there admittedly weren't many opportunities for me to observe this aside from perhaps going from the main floor to the basement when handling (82 ambient snake room, 70ish degree basement). We wouldn't want a cool breeze in the first place though, you're right there.

Logan, the bump could disappear rather quickly or it may take a while. Usually with younger, rapidly growing animals it will clear up faster but it's pretty variable. I'm not able to coach you as to how you should modify the screen top simply because I don't use them and haven't done it. Some other suggestions have been made that may work, though. My biggest thing is that you make totally sure the mites are 100% gone.

The rubbing also seems to have been from conditions from before he got her, so as long as she isn't rubbing now, whatever is working seems good. From the pics he posted, his tank looks roughly the same size as the tubs I use for my babies (with some rearranging of dimensions probably).

Yeah, central A/C is definitely different from a unit. There's a more even coolness if that makes sense, since it's not a strong blast of air pushing the cold around.

Unfortunately, I have no clue how else to modify it either. I only have three enclosures with screen, and I've never had a rubber, so I haven't had to modify them.

Originally Posted by Minkness

Still working on the mites. I am pretty agressive with them and rescued a BP that was totally covered and had her cleared up 100% with just one shed. Hopefully the same goes this time. Everyone is on paper towels with clear, plastic water dishes.

She isn't soaking at all, and neither is anyone else, so I'm thinking they are already getting under control. =)

That's good to hear! Hopefully it stays that way. Sounds like she's doing well in your care if the rubbing has stopped.

[Andy_G]

I respectfully disagree with getting the biggest tub possible and cluttering it and i'll explain why. Baby boas will do better in a smaller tub, and putting a new one such as that will encourage rubbing, not discourage it. I see no point in creating more to clean and therefore more time bothering the baby doing so. I always kept littermates together in small groups on moist paper towel in shoe box size bins until their first shed when I would seperate them for feeding and they'd get their own so I am not confident that is a significant stressor... A very active baby boa is usually a stressed one I have found, and a baby's very arboreal nature (although boas are semi-arboreal, babies are even more so) is in order to feel more secure while exposed. The fact that boas have a slower metabolism and are purely ambush predators by nature would indicate that they would prefer to preserve energy. I also think thag cooler air coming from an A/C would "slow down" the boa and make it more sluggish, not the other way around. Excessive heat as I mentioned would more likely be a stressor. You mentioned mites and they will trigger rubbing BIG TIME.

You know what you're doing as far as new acquisitions go Logan, just see if you can avoid using any screen for now and monitor the bumps for changes and do the usual leave alone and feed after a week, etc. Sometimes these small abcesses are benign and take care of themselves but monitor it.

[Minkness]

Thanks Andy!

Do you think putting duct tape on the underside of the screen will help?

Also, these babies are a few months old, have shed 3 times and been regular feeders. The ones who had not been regular feeders were not yet available but she let me look at them and there was a SERIOUS difference.

I'm really thinking that the tub may have been too warm as the heat kind of rolled out when I opened the tub.

Also, I have provided a climb for her that goes almost up to the top and that's where she does most of her hanging out right now. I will get a pic of the set up later today. I was in a bit of a rush yesterday.

[Andy_G]

Im leary of using tape in an enclosure. All it takes is for one corner to get loose and the snake to stick to it...im sure she will settle soon.

[Minkness]

Fair enough. What other suggestions do you have for covering the screen on the inside? Maybe I could use silicone? Scrape a layer on it and let it dry maybe? That takes like 24 hrs to cure though....hmmmm....

[Ian of Oldham]

What about getting a bit of hard board and put holes in the corner and then pin it to the top with string or something