border
sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum
 

Go Back   sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum > Community Forums > General Discussion

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-02-16, 05:27 PM   #1
IDB
Member
 
Join Date: Feb-2016
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 8
Country:
A Unique Friendship

I would like to start off by saying that I am a new member here, and that this is also my first post!

What inspired me to join and share my thoughts was a recent tragedy that has left me wanting to express my thoughts to fellow snake/reptile lovers.

I have always been fascinated by all kinds of reptiles, but more specifically snakes, all kinds of them!

My very first pet was a Colombian Red-tail boa constrictor. I got her for a present on my 4th birthday, and learned a lot through raising her from the size of a large nightcrawler, until she was a hulking 10 footer! Her name was Xena, (originally Hercules until she grew large enough to determine that she was infact a female). Unfortunately, Xena passed away when I was 14 due to a feeder rat biting her in the mouth and causing a horrible infection rendering her unable to eat. This was both a tragedy, and a huge learning experience which led to my use of frozen feeders for my new boa.

Now that you all know what brought me into the wonderful world of snakes, I can move onto my story.

I am now 21 years old, and had been working for a landscaping company over the warm seasons (I reside in good ole Wisconsin). During my time working for this company, I had come to learn that a lot of the guys I worked with, were insensitive to wildlife, especially snakes. Several times, I would hear some commotion among the other workers, only to come over and discover that one of them was startled by a small garter snake, and that they reacted by ending its life with the bottom of their boot.

There were two specific instances where I was lucky enough to save baby snakes whose (presumed) mothers had been killed.

The first instance was shortly after one of the guys had freaked out and used a shovel to kill a rather large female garter. A few minutes after, I placed her body in one of the plant holes and planted a flower over her. While moving a gutter drain, I spotted a baby garter, curled up by itself underneath where the drain had been. Realizing that this snake would likely follow the demise of the large one, I quickly captured it and placed it in my lunch pail, along with a cap full of water. As soon as I got off of work, I put together a nice viv for it in my apartment. The baby snake remained very active, and always fed enthusiastically on the fresh earthworms I gave it, and had very vibrant contrast in its coloration. This snake is healthy to this day, and has nearly trippled in size since the day I caught it!

Less than 2 weeks after I saved the garter, we were at a different job on heavily wooded lakefront property. Nearing the end of this 2 day job, one of the other guys had spotted a small snake slithering around an area of heavy foot-traffic by one of the dump trucks and subsequently called me over. One of the other guys almost stepped on it without even knowing! As I approached the snake, I noticed that it was moving different from any other snake I had seen before (almost like a sidewinder, as if it were swimming on the concrete). When I got close enough, I discovered that this was a baby northern water snake! Knowing that it was cleanup time, and that one of the 14 snake haters was bound to come across it, and likely kill it, I picked it up (it even bit me twice while I was picking it up) and placed it in my handy lunch pail. I went to the store on my way home, and purchased another small tank, as well as materials to set up a viv for it to live in. Upon doing some research on the species (I had very little knowledge on how to care for this type of snake), I learned that water snakes are fairly aggresive in comparison to garters. That must explain why it didnt hesitate to bite me while I picked it up, lol.

For the next several weeks, both snakes lived in their separate tanks, side by side. Knowing that snakes are solitary animals, and known for cannibalism, I figured keeping them in the same enclosure was out of the picture...

This is the point in my story where some of you may end up telling me that I am ignorant and reckless, but please, just continue reading on.

Throughout the several weeks that I had kept their tanks side by side, I would often observe both the garter, and NWS examining each other through the glass. I would handle both snakes on separate occasions. The garter handled how you would expect from day 1. It would be very active, but not frantic as if trying to flee. The NWS was a little spastic at first, but after a few handles, it seems as though it developed more trust, and eventually it would let me pick it up without objection, and would even sit calmly on my lap without trying to scurry off. The water snake was very healthy at this point. It had been feeding well on the small minnows I gave it, and also had nice, strong color.

It was at this point where the thought crossed my mind: "What if I tried keeping them together?" Of course, anyone who has decent knowledge and has done their research knows that this is extremely risky. It is a general acceptance that snakes in general, especially snakes of different species, should NOT be kept in the same enclosure. They can both undergo heavy amounts of stress, as well as running the risk of competition for food, territory, and even cannibalize each other, which almost always ends in the death of both snakes. I knew that both snakes were babies, and that they were at least somewhat familiar with each other.

I put the water snake inside the garter's tank.

This was a very tense moment for me right from the get-go. I had established that the NWS was slightly more aggresivw than the garter, even after it had seemingly become more comfortable with me. The tension grew as the garter came out from its hide, and the water snake slowly approached it. I was recording this moment with my phone, and I am glad that I did, as this was a very tense moment like I had said before.

As each second passed, tension grew for me since both snakes came face to face. They both smelled each other with their tongues, and moved very slowly around each other. All of a sudden, all of the tension was released, as both snakes appeared to relax. The water snake continued to examine the rest of the enclosure, while the garter snake remained out in the open, as if watching the NWS. After a few more minutes of watching, the garter disappeared back under its hide, and the water snake found its own nesting spot under the water bowl. At this point, I had felt a sense of relief, and trusted the situation enough to walk away, and check back later.

When I came back, both snakes were out of site. Being curious, I lifted up one of the hides to discover both snakes underneath! Most snake enthusiasts know that this may be a competition for territory, but I had noticed that neither snake was on top of the other, they were coiled up side by side, much like corn snakes that you would see at a pet store sharing an enclosure.

Days went by with varying observations. I would see the snakes in their own separate hides, and occasionally under the same hide together. Now for the next high-tension moment: Feeding time.

I knew that the NWS diet consisted solely of fish and other inverts found in fresh water, while the garter snake diet consisted mostly of earthworms, but also ate fish. At this point, I had been feeding the garter snake a combination earthworms and occasionally minnows. I had been feeding the NWS a minnow-only diet throughout his whole life under my care. Knowing this, my approach to feeding time was to feed a worm to the garter first, since the water snake has no interest in them. After the garter finished with the worm, I would place the bowl of minnows in so that the water snake could eat them.

This plan worked well, though the garter did come in and eat two of the minnows while the NWS was eating them as well. Never, not once throughout this process, did either snake show aggression towards the other. As a matter of fact, both snakes fed the same exact way they had when they were in their own enclosures.

I continued using this method for months, however there became a point in time, where I noticed that the garter stopped eating minnows completely. It was almost as if it had established what was meant for him, and what was meant for the water snake. I tested this theory when the next feeding time came. I did not give the garter its worm, and went straight to placing the minnows. To my surprise, the garter took notice of this fish by poking his head over the bowl, and then returning to the hide. The NWS began feeding on the minnows, and after he was finished, he returned into the hide with the garter snake. I then dropped a nightcrawler into the tank, and almost immediately, the garter emerged, and ate the worm.

Some will say that there must have been an established dominance, or that either snake may have been stressed out, but I truly believe that these snakes had developed a mutual respect for each other. Never did I have a problem with either snake not eating, regurgitation, or aggression toward each other. They would share the hides, as well as the basking spot. Both snakes were frequent shedders, and remained active and healthy. I continued handling both snakes separately, and when I would do so, I noticed something else that further reinforces my idea of a developed mutual respect. When I would return one snake from handling, the other would poke its head out of the hide, and the one I was returning would almost always go directly to that hide.

I believe that these snakes had a beautiful companionship; Something I never thought snakes could have. Their names are "Lil Nard" (garter) and "Spaz" (northern water snake).

Like the title states, this is a very unique situation which took a process of introducing two wild-caught baby snakes over the course of several months. This story is by no means a guide, or a recommendation to try and keep multiple snakes (especially of different species) together in one habitat.

Now, if you enjoyed my (true) story, and would like to end your day with a new light on snakes, and that they truly can develop a trustful relationship with one another; stop reading now. Tell the story of Lil Nard and Spaz to all of your reptile-loving friends, and go to sleep happy that I saved two young snakes from the demise of ignorant men with gardening tools, while also giving them a sense of companionship that they likely would have never had in the wild, should they have survived said ignorant garden tool-wielding men.

For those of you who wondering where the tragedy comes into play; keep on reading...

Okay, I gave you fair warning, read on at the cost of your own tears.

Months go by with Lil Nard and Spaz remaining friends. They both grow by a decent size, neither outgrowing the other tremendously. They continue living healthy lives, Lil Nard growing fairly lengthy, while Spaz shows most of his growth in his girth. Their friendship never changes, in fact, it seems stronger than ever.

Several complications in my personal life lead to the necessity of a move into a different apartment, in another city. Due to various reasons, I will not be able to keep this dynamic duo in my new place for time being. My girlfriend, who lives only a few blocks away from my old apartment, offers to care for them until I can take them back in. She has seen me care for the snakes their whole lives, and I trust that she knows enough to keep them in good health just for a few weeks, no more than 2 months.

I bring their tank to her place, and leave them in the best spot that I thought would be suitable for them. I give her the basic parent to babysitter spiel, letting her know when to turn the heat lamp off, as well as back on. How often to feed them, and to let me know ASAP if anything is wrong. We have our hug and kiss, and I am off to my new home.

After the hour long drive, I arrive at my new place, and am greeted on my phone by the pleasant site of a picture showing her holding Spaz. She tells me that she made a better and more out-of-the-way spot for their tank, under her computer desk. I figure that this is a good thing, since she has a cat, and her room is a little tight as it is as far as space goes.

She sends me a video showing that both snakes have shed their skin, and are enjoying their new home!

Not long after, she asks me if it is normal for snakes to yawn? Figuring that this is just related to the shed, I tell her yes, they typically will open their mouths and appear to be yawning before and after a shed. Little did I know that this was not the case.

A few minutes fo by, and I receive a video showing Spaz rolling on his back with his mouth open, like he's writhing in pain. IBD crosses my mind, since they are both wild caught snakes, but this didn't appear to be IBD. Not to mention, they were both perfectly fine for all those months, all the way up until I dropped them off, never showing signs of the disease. Then, it hit me a brick wall. Spaz was overheating. Her computer desk is a tight spot, with a computer, a router, and the wall heater all within 10 inches of the tank on either side. I look at one of the pictures she sent me, and the heat lamp was directly over the middle of the tank!

Immediately, I send her a text message with a list of instructions to hopefully save the poor water snake. I told her to turn the lamp off, remove Spaz from the tank, and to place him in a bowl of lukewarm water to bring his blood temp down, and to remove him every few minutes to mist him with a spray of water. Nearly 15 minutes goes by without hearing back from her. Figuring that she was busy doing what I had told her and could not text me back, I call her. She answers normally, and I figure he's doing okay, so I ask her how Spaz is doing, and she tells me she hasn't done anything yet! She's down in the basement doing laundry! At this point, I am almost positive that he's a goner. 15 minutes in that intense heat after he first started showing symptoms of overheating... things arent looking up. I assert to her the urgency of the situation, and that he is about to die. She hangs up, rushes upstairs, and gives me a call back. This time, she is crying when I pick up the phone. She tells me that he looks terrible, that he looks like he is dying (you don't say?!). She sends me a video of him still in the flippin tank! At this point, I am getting extremely frustrated with her ignorance/negligence, and call her, telling her to follow the frickin instructions I sent her over 20 minutes ago. She goes "I didn't even check my phone!" Christ in heaven, my snake is going to die.

Hours go by of me walking her through on the phone as to what she needs to do. It was very stressful, because I am over an hour away, it's early morning hours, and there isnt much more that can be done aside from what I was instructing her to do, which I couldnt continue to do if I were to drive up through the Wisconsin winter roads. As soon as I had made that first phone call, and discovered that she had left him for over 15 minutes after he showed the first signs, I was 99% sure that the only thing that could save him was a miracle.

That miracle never came. Spaz passed away shortly after 3 am on Sunday, January 31st of 2016. A tragedy indeed.

I drove up the very next day, to assure that Lil Nard would not follow the same fate. My girlfriend showed me a video showing that Lil Nard had come over by Spaz while he was writing in pain, and was checking him out as if he was actually concerned. Yes, I know, why are you recording my dying snake instead of helping it; but that is all hindsight now.

One of the saddest parts of this story, is that Lil Nard has been going around the tank, as if looking for Spaz. Lil Nard has been sitting inder his hide, head poking out every time I come over, the same way as when I would return his tank buddy after handling. It is truly heartbreaking.

I believe their relationship was one of a kind, and that Spaz can never be replaced. I don't think I will ever attempt to give Lil Nard another partner, as I know it will never be the same.

Thank you for taking your time to read my story.

I appreciate all support, and thoughts, but please no negative comments. It is already difficult to cope with, and frustrating because I know that Spaz's death could have been prevented, but all that can be done now is exactly what I have done: Share the tragic, but beautiful story of Spaz, and Lil Nard.
IDB is offline  
Login to remove ads
Old 02-02-16, 05:54 PM   #2
Aaron_S
Forum Moderator
 
Aaron_S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov-2002
Location: Toronto
Age: 39
Posts: 16,977
Send a message via MSN to Aaron_S
Re: A Unique Friendship

Welcome to the forum. Sorry to hear your story.

I don't think overheating caused your snake to die considering another snake was exposed to the same levels of heat and you didn't mention anything wrong with it. Hope that helps a bit.

Also IBD doesn't occur in colubrids so you're safe there too.
Aaron_S is offline  
Old 02-02-16, 09:20 PM   #3
IDB
Member
 
Join Date: Feb-2016
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 8
Country:
Re: A Unique Friendship

A couple pictures of them together:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20150712_185600.jpg (22.3 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg 20150712_184304.jpg (26.3 KB, 33 views)
IDB is offline  
Old 02-02-16, 09:16 PM   #4
IDB
Member
 
Join Date: Feb-2016
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 8
Country:
Re: A Unique Friendship

Thanks for the warm welcome!

My main cause to believe that the NWS died due to overheating, yet the garter remained unaffected, is because water snakes have a lower range in heat tolerance, especially ones found up north. I suspect that the tank was in the upper 90° F range at the time of the incident (possibly even higher), which is at the top end of the garter's safe spectrum, whereas Northern Water Snakes' safe temperature spectrum is around 77° F at the very top end. Of course, I'm no expert, but it seems to be the most plausible cause.

Good to know that it wasnt IBD though.
IDB is offline  
Old 02-02-16, 10:31 PM   #5
Akuma223
Member
 
Akuma223's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr-2012
Location: New York
Age: 28
Posts: 548
Country:
Re: A Unique Friendship

What did you feed them? Some feeder fish like goldfish contain a lot of thiaminase (sp?) which I think builds up in the animals system and eventually causes neural damage and death.
Akuma223 is offline  
Login to remove ads
Old 02-03-16, 12:29 AM   #6
IDB
Member
 
Join Date: Feb-2016
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 8
Country:
Re: A Unique Friendship

I fed the water snake strictly minnows, made absolutely sure never to feed them goldfish, as they also contain high amounts of fat and are low in valuable nutrition. I made another post in reply to Aaron, but it hasn't been approved yet.
IDB is offline  
Old 02-03-16, 12:37 AM   #7
REM955
Member
 
Join Date: Dec-2014
Posts: 479
Country:
Re: A Unique Friendship

I just did a quick web search on minnows and thiaminase. Here is what I found. Link included.
"Among the food fish families consumed by man, species that contain thiaminase include minnows, carps, herrings, anchovies, goatfishes and snappers. Many different invertebrates have also been found to contain thiaminase, including mussels, clams and shrimps/prawns such as those in the genus Penaeus, sometimes in even higher concentrations than those found in fish.
In contrast several groups of fish have been generally found to be free of thiaminase, including North American sunfishes, flounders, cods and croakers."
Link:Thiaminase
The article suggests in the wild these animals switch between those with thiaminase and vitamin B amounts, but I did not fully read it through. Need sleep.
REM955 is offline  
Old 02-03-16, 12:39 AM   #8
IDB
Member
 
Join Date: Feb-2016
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 8
Country:
Re: A Unique Friendship

Sorry for the double reply, but in response to Aaron:

My reasoning for believing that the NWS died due to overheating, while the Garter remained healthy, is because garters have a much higher temperature range tolerance. At the time of the incident, the tank was likely around the upper 90°F range (possibly slightly higher), which is near the top end of a garter's safe temperature spectrum. Northern water snakes' safe spectrum ends around the 77°F and cooler range. My guess is that the tank was nearly 20°F above that (tank in an enclosed space, next to a radiator, computer, and the heat lamp.placed directly in the center of the tank).

Of course, I'm no expert by any means. Just what I believed happened.
IDB is offline  
Old 02-03-16, 12:40 AM   #9
REM955
Member
 
Join Date: Dec-2014
Posts: 479
Country:
Re: A Unique Friendship

I will give you another link that seems to support the idea of balance but not excess. They also have a list of feeders with and without somewhere.
All About Thiaminase - Gartersnake.info
Section: What happens to a snake with a thiamin deficiency?
This seems to describe what you saw happening with Spaz.

I am sorry for what happened. While it hasn't been a snake, I have lost pets early too.
Thank you for sharing.
REM955 is offline  
Old 02-03-16, 12:42 AM   #10
IDB
Member
 
Join Date: Feb-2016
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 8
Country:
Re: A Unique Friendship

REM955:

Thank you for the information, I did not know that. I used minnows because my research yielded suggestions for minnows, due to their low fat content in comparison to goldfish. They are also the only feeder fish available other than gold fish (of my knowledge).
IDB is offline  
Login to remove ads
Old 02-03-16, 12:51 AM   #11
IDB
Member
 
Join Date: Feb-2016
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 8
Country:
Re: A Unique Friendship

I just read the link you sent me. This seems like a very plausible explanation as well. It just sucks that this happened so suddenly. If only I had known, I would have taken the precautions accordingly... it is all hindsight now though. I may take a trip to the pet store that I purchased my minnows from, and ask them if they used any additives in their water or food to prevent their minnows from being high in thiaminase. Thanks again.
IDB is offline  
Old 02-03-16, 03:18 AM   #12
Klaire
Member
 
Klaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov-2015
Location: Sunshine Coast
Age: 28
Posts: 271
Country:
Re: A Unique Friendship

So sorry to hear about that, i suppose on the bright side you can appreciate the fact that you got to witness and be apart of something that otherwise wouldn't usually happen
__________________
Real Women love snakes-
Klaire is offline  
Old 02-03-16, 08:46 AM   #13
sirtalis
Member
 
sirtalis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May-2015
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
Posts: 698
Country:
Re: A Unique Friendship

Sorry for your loss I may have read tis wrong but did you say that you got a snake when you were 4? My sister is 5 and i cant imagine her with a pet of any type lol
__________________
Bio-active for the win
sirtalis is offline  
Old 02-03-16, 12:18 PM   #14
IDB
Member
 
Join Date: Feb-2016
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 8
Country:
Re: A Unique Friendship

Thank you for the positive words, Klaire!

You read correctly, I got a pet red tailed boa constrictor for my 4th birthday. Obviously, I didn't take care of it all on my own. I would be impressed with myself if I could manage such a thing!
IDB is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
friends, love, unique


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:20 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®
©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2002-2023, Hobby Solutions.

right