Does inbreeding really hurt anything?

[pet_snake_78]

I know there are some fatal homozygous morphs so obviously the siblings would be a pure choice to breed together. What I am asking about is more as a general rule. It seems in school it was always stressed that inbreeding was bad but some of the lines in herpetoculture are said to have started from a very small number of founders and are still going. Does anyone have first hand experience with inbreeding issues (with snakes that is lol)

Also when snakes first landed on small islands, wouldn't they have came from just a few specimens to begin with? Seems places like the galapagos would have shown issues in their populations after hundreds or years if inbreeding were a big enough issue?

[franks]

Perpetuated inbreeding causes problems but if you are referring to getting "a pair" from the same clutch that does not necessarily have any negative consequences to those animals or their offspring. Personally, it would be cool if nobody breeder siblings but that just is not practical. (I actually recently ordered a 1.1 pair.) The problems we see are in lines that were never outcrossed.

And Mikoh- (since I know you will read this) I asked Nick about the question you posted regarding other carpet python lines. He said the other lines were outcrossed from the get go and that the problem is made worse by jets. For instance, the zebra line started with an animal that was sexes wrong and could not breed. (Obviously) it was sold and the first time it ever bred was to a completely unrelated Line.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by franks

And Mikoh- (since I know you will read this) I asked Nick about the question you posted regarding other carpet python lines. He said the other lines were outcrossed from the get go and that the problem is made worse by jets. For instance, the zebra line started with an animal that was sexes wrong and could not breed. (Obviously) it was sold and the first time it ever bred was to a completely unrelated Line.

You're a psychic! which lines are you talking about? Are you talking about the ivory line?

To the OP, inbreeding for a generation or so shouldn't cause problems in snakes. People do it all the time and that's what it means to line breed. Just make it a point not to breed anything with obvious problems/defects. Inbreeding happens a lot in the wild where a snake's range is not large and they end up breeding with related animals.

[shaunyboy]

its called line breeding mate

Carpet Pythons can be line bred right up to and past F5 with no issues

ive heard some boa's can have physical defects when line bred too far,born blind,or with one or no eyes

imo it all depends on the species


cheers shaun

[Will0W783]

In my opinion, yes, it does. You might not see any outward signs in one generation, but inbred snakes can have weaker immune systems, higher propensity for diseases like cancer and kinking, and subtle proportion abnormalities.

For example, inbred eyelash vipers tend to have larger eyes, under- or overbite, smaller heads, and tend to die young. I've seen some ball pythons with messed-up looking heads (weird snout shapes, eyes buggy, etc).

There are so many beautiful, natural variations in snakes- why intentionally do something that could decrease an animal's quality of life just to take a breeding shortcut or try to perpetuate a tiny pattern/color variation?

Just my $0.02, and I know it will not be a popular opinion, but I'm in it for the animals and their best interest.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Will0W783

In my opinion, yes, it does. You might not see any outward signs in one generation, but inbred snakes can have weaker immune systems, higher propensity for diseases like cancer and kinking, and subtle proportion abnormalities.

For example, inbred eyelash vipers tend to have larger eyes, under- or overbite, smaller heads, and tend to die young. I've seen some ball pythons with messed-up looking heads (weird snout shapes, eyes buggy, etc).

There are so many beautiful, natural variations in snakes- why intentionally do something that could decrease an animal's quality of life just to take a breeding shortcut or try to perpetuate a tiny pattern/color variation?

Just my $0.02, and I know it will not be a popular opinion, but I'm in it for the animals and their best interest.

Many ball python deformities have nothing to do with inbreeding. Bug eyes or weird shaped heads can be caused by incubation problems or just general abnormalities.

I find your opinion interesting when you say it's for the animals but yet you own and wish to breed many venomous species that which are wild caught purely to own captive bred specimens. If you were in it for the animals, why not just let them be in the wild and deal with what we've already got?

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Many ball python deformities have nothing to do with inbreeding. Bug eyes or weird shaped heads can be caused by incubation problems or just general abnormalities.

I find your opinion interesting when you say it's for the animals but yet you own and wish to breed many venomous species that which are wild caught purely to own captive bred specimens. If you were in it for the animals, why not just let them be in the wild and deal with what we've already got?

Originally Posted by Will0W783

In my opinion, yes, it does. You might not see any outward signs in one generation, but inbred snakes can have weaker immune systems, higher propensity for diseases like cancer and kinking, and subtle proportion abnormalities.

For example, inbred eyelash vipers tend to have larger eyes, under- or overbite, smaller heads, and tend to die young. I've seen some ball pythons with messed-up looking heads (weird snout shapes, eyes buggy, etc).

There are so many beautiful, natural variations in snakes- why intentionally do something that could decrease an animal's quality of life just to take a breeding shortcut or try to perpetuate a tiny pattern/color variation?

Just my $0.02, and I know it will not be a popular opinion, but I'm in it for the animals and their best interest.

Would you guys agree that it really depends on the type of snake? For example dwarf island boas and some type of kingsnake(I forgot. I think it was mountain or scarlet kings) don't have very large ranges in the wild and are very isolated populations. Therefore they are for the most part or completely(in the case of some island boas) very inbred. Maybe there are snakes that have not been inbreeding as long in the wild and do not handle it well.

[Georgia]

Originally Posted by mikoh4792

would you guys agree that it really depends on the type of snake? For example dwarf island boas and some type of kingsnake(i forgot. I think it was mountain or scarlet kings) don't have very large ranges in the wild and are very isolated populations. Therefore they are for the most part or completely(in the case of some island boas) very inbred. Maybe there are snakes that have not been inbreeding as long in the wild and do not handle it well.

100% fact..

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

Would you guys agree that it really depends on the type of snake? For example dwarf island boas and some type of kingsnake(I forgot. I think it was mountain or scarlet kings) don't have very large ranges in the wild and are very isolated populations. Therefore they are for the most part or completely(in the case of some island boas) very inbred. Maybe there are snakes that have not been inbreeding as long in the wild and do not handle it well.

i agree completely mate.....


its all depends on which species

there are islands with limited bloodlines and as far as i know,the island populations don't have a high rate of deformed snakes


cheers shaun


cheers shaun

[formica]

Originally Posted by shaunyboy

i agree completely mate.....


its all depends on which species

there are islands with limited bloodlines and as far as i know,the island populations don't have a high rate of deformed snakes


cheers shaun


cheers shaun

thats a great example of how inbreeding reinforces useful genes and kills off ones which are detrimental

but the problem with that kind of very closely related population, is that the small gene pool means they are far less likely to adapt to changes in their environment, the randomness found in wider gene pools is what allows a species as a whole, to constantly adapt to changes in its enviroment

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

Would you guys agree that it really depends on the type of snake? For example dwarf island boas and some type of kingsnake(I forgot. I think it was mountain or scarlet kings) don't have very large ranges in the wild and are very isolated populations. Therefore they are for the most part or completely(in the case of some island boas) very inbred. Maybe there are snakes that have not been inbreeding as long in the wild and do not handle it well.

I am speaking from a standpoint of captivity. Comparing the wild vs captivity is comparing apples to oranges. Not the same two topics so I refrain from that.

[franks]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I am speaking from a standpoint of captivity. Comparing the wild vs captivity is comparing apples to oranges. Not the same two topics so I refrain from that.

I think the two topics are related. All of our breeding cones from lines or a line of wild caught specimens. I have been looking into getting a hogg island boa. First off, they are almost extinct (they were believed extinct for about 10 yrs I think) but such a small island population must have been pretty inbred and trying to find a pure captive means it will be even more inbred. If i ever were to breed them I will be further inbreeding these snakes. This is why I think the question is relevant and crossed over. If a snake is inbred in its natural environment it will only be more inbred when coming to captivity.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by franks

I think the two topics are related. All of our breeding cones from lines or a line of wild caught specimens. I have been looking into getting a hogg island boa. First off, they are almost extinct (they were believed extinct for about 10 yrs I think) but such a small island population must have been pretty inbred and trying to find a pure captive means it will be even more inbred. If i ever were to breed them I will be further inbreeding these snakes. This is why I think the question is relevant and crossed over. If a snake is inbred in its natural environment it will only be more inbred when coming to captivity.

That's the point I was getting at. Atleast for several generations taking a very isolated and inbred population from the wild and breeding them in captivity would still be very similar. Sure, natural selection gets thrown out the window but wouldn't they still be able to handle inbreeding better than other non-isolated populations that often breed with unrelated animals? I'm only thinking this because the animals would come already resistant to inbreeding depression.

[SSSSnakes]

Originally Posted by Will0W783

In my opinion, yes, it does. You might not see any outward signs in one generation, but inbred snakes can have weaker immune systems, higher propensity for diseases like cancer and kinking, and subtle proportion abnormalities.

For example, inbred eyelash vipers tend to have larger eyes, under- or overbite, smaller heads, and tend to die young. I've seen some ball pythons with messed-up looking heads (weird snout shapes, eyes buggy, etc).

There are so many beautiful, natural variations in snakes- why intentionally do something that could decrease an animal's quality of life just to take a breeding shortcut or try to perpetuate a tiny pattern/color variation?

Just my $0.02, and I know it will not be a popular opinion, but I'm in it for the animals and their best interest.

I agree with you 100%. You are right, this is not going to be the popular opinion.

[Will0W783]

Aaron, yes many deformities have absolutely nothing to do with inbreeding. And, one or two generations probably doesn't hurt. But, why take the chance?

I do own wild-caught animals. The wild-caught vipers I work with are usually rarer species that would benefit from captive bred lines being established. People are going to want to own them, so solid healthy CBB lines take pressure off wild populations by decreasing the need for further importation and establishing populations to keep the species alive if habitat is lost. I do go for captive bred whenever I can however. So from a scientific research and preservation standpoint I do feel I'm in it for the animals.

Many morphs and line-bred pythons/boas do great and have no problems. I just personally feel that it's best to avoid inbreeding, even if it takes longer to establish a given trait.